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 CNC Router Build 
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:18 pm
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Well CNC Router build as come to a complete standstill as works as taken over . The router would have been really handy on current job but hopefully will be able to get on with it after Easter .
Current job is a large automata for a Easter display so quite a fun job really . But big router would make it a hole lot simpler though.

One part of mechanism will all be painted eventually .
D1


Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:58 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Well, I have finally learned enough Fusion360 to get me going.

In this video I start with Adaptive Clearing with a gentle helix plunge at 200 mm/min feed in order to remove material. Down to a depth of 6mm. Then it opens up the circle with a WOC of 0.6 with a much faster Feed Rate of 550mm/mm. and so on.

After that, there is one final pass of Contour milling (0.2mm) using climb milling.

Finally, a tool change to do a pass with the chamfer tool.

Spindle revs: 1900
End mill: 8mm three flute YG-1 Alu Power with a 45 degree helix designed for cutting aluminium.
Coolant, none, just a vacuum to get rid of the swarf.

These were just practice ball bearing holes using various end mills. My first project with this Sieg SX2.7 CNC conversion is going to be an automatic tool change.

*Shown at actual speed throughout.*

Edward



Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:54 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Hi Edward ya getting a really nice finish their . Must admit i never bother with different passes always in to much of a hurry . One day i will have a go at getting high quality finish but at mo not that important .
I am going to order rest of stuff for router just so i can get it in this financial year not sure when its going to be finished though .
Look forward to seeing your automatic tool changer .
D1


Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:57 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Hi D1,

Hope you can now get on with your router project, it's been a long time:)

Well, same with me and CNC, it took me ages, now I am beginning to see the potential at last. I still like to use the other smaller machine for manual tasks, like squaring up edges after cutting, as it's faster.

After the Tool changer, I will go back to my video motion control projects, I have a new pan/tilt that I started, with tiny HD's, so very light, and I want to finish that. Then I want to make something quite portable too.

So lots in the pipeline for this year, I am enjoying the semi-retirement, more time to potter about in the man cave:)

I know you are a CamBam follower, but Fusion360 is very good once you pass the learning curve, I am finding it easier and easier as I persevere. A lot of the settings can be templates, so you don't have to fill in boxes all the time.


Edward


PS. Yes the finish is pretty good and shiny. I also got myself a face mill, well, I got two, the first one was no use. I prefer the one with only fur inserts and at 45 degrees. The finish is OK, but not completely mirror like, you still get some minor tool marks that go out easily with a bit of grey Scotch pad.


Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:27 pm
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Hi Edward i may look at Fusion 360 again it prob makes sense just always jump to CamBam when a job comes in .
The router still at stand still but i have ordered most of the electronics and motors now.
Found a old desktop in my loft that will make a great case . Not my idea lots of other people done the same .
[flickr]Image2017-03-06 13.42.44 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
Will prob be on the hunt for more skip find pcs now . I like re using things and realised you can convert the power supply to a nice desk top supply

Think spent £6 on voltage regulator and Volt Amp gauge and some banana plugs for conversion . So another little project on the list oh dear list getting long these days .
D1


Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:34 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Hi D1, Yes, good idea about using the old computer box, that's a start! . I have a few of these, only they are old Macs, and they are still worth a bit on Ebay. I will be making my own box from scratch, I think. At the moment all is loose on the bench, far enough from the swarf, apart from when I use the face mill, which tends to spray chips all over the place.

I have finished the first prototype of the manual quick release drawbar. It works OK but it needs a bit of fine tuning. Once I am happy pictures to come. I need to test it cutting something heavy weight, as I don't know the exact number of turns to tighten the drawbar with the Belleville washers in place, I have tried 2 full turns after tightening with the fingers. It appears very firm. I don't want the tool holder to come out of the spindle and go flying across the room!.


I am now getting more confident with the CNC and reasonably OK with Fusion. If you ever decide to use it and have some questions, I will be glad to help if I can. But only the Cam side, as I still use Solidworks for designing.

Edward


Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:45 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Hi Edward it was the drawing side of Fusion that didnt seem to work for me so as you say it may be a case of just using the CAM side of it.
This series of vids gives a very in depth guide to a electronics encloser build .

Prob a bit to in depth actually but covers all bases . Have you set up a Z probe on your mill ? Never bothered on my current set up same with limit switches but decided to do it all properly on router . With the mill it was a case of i need it working quickly then it just stayed like that . It would be nice to redo all the electronics on the mill to but that well down the list maybe when router up and running .
Very impressed with my spindle motor by the way feels very well made and heavy very heavy . The entire router is going to weigh a lot hope the shed floor can take it :D .
D1


Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:28 pm
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
I haven't fitted limit sensors yet. I have overrun the Y carriage a few times, but the drivers I am using stop automatically as soon as they sense a stall, and they work well at it:)


Manual quick release drawbar, now finished, updated video showing the lever mechanism.

Edward




Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:17 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
It's been a bit quiet lately so I thought I'd let you see what I've been doing with my CNC router...



Kit

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Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:40 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Hi kit the forum is very quite these days inevitable really with the amount of timelapse out their .
Still it got us all making different things which is good .
Router looking good and working well i have one of those Makita trimmers very solid great for your cnc . Hope to get back onto mine now my current job is finished . Couldn't resist doing a quick vid

So if ya in the Barnsley area call into http://cannonhallfarm.co.uk/ for a perfect fun day out .
Ps wish i could play something :(
Cheers D1


Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:31 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Nice egg machine, not so shure about the music. Is she singing "Sugar Hippo"?

My current machine is doing some useful stuff but is much in need of it's next upgrade to reduce flexing and improve the accuracy. No plans for a machine that can cut metal at the moment.
I've been spending a lot of time recently using the experience with steppers etc. gained from Timescapes to build a semi-automatic weaving loom so, as you say, we've all been using the experience to build other things.

Have you tried the new v1.0 of CamBam? It has some useful additions such as spline curves and the ability to vectorise bitmap images. There is also a website for third party add-ons to CamBam at the link below. I particularly like the 'v-engrave' add-on which makes the sort of beautiful engraved text I've only seen from the expensive 'V-Carve' software before.

http://www.atelier-des-fougeres.fr/Camb ... oc_EN.html

Kit

PS You could always learn to play the shovel...


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Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:24 pm
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Wow thats some good shovel playing . Soz ya dont like Sugarr Hippo but each to his own me a big Cocteau Twins fan take it your more of a blues fella.
Didnt realise CamBam had updated thought development had more or less stopped will check it out .
I had a look at Fusion again just on the CAM side and Edward is prob right it does offer some good machining strategies . A auto tool changer would be a good idea though as it does incurage a lot of tool changing . So for the time been i will stick with CamBams quick and dirty approach.
As for your router now its working it should be difficult to re machine new bits . Have you consider using Acrilic/lexan tougher than wood but a lot easier to machine than Ali . In fact in machines very nicely i use acrylic a lot :D
Look forward to seeing your loom got to keep forum going even if its got nothing at all to do with timelapse !
D1


Mon Mar 27, 2017 3:52 am
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Location: Merritt Island, Florida, Estates Unitas
Post Re: CNC Router Build
Awesome guitar Kit, nice to see your router making parts for you. D1, was there some compelling reason for you to go with a water cooled spindle motor instead of a cheap router? I got one of those water cooled jobs because its specs said it had more power, but changed my mind and am starting with a router. I can always swap in the other spindle if it seems necessary, but running cooling water to the router seemed like one more complication that could be avoided.

Sorry about not checking the forum so often lately. I have purchased a $900 luxury yacht and have been busy getting it ready for Summer. I had to rip out all the wiring because someone had wired it with lamp cord which has badly frayed insulation by now. Also installed a fridge, freezer and microwave so she is fully live-aboard. I hope to make some sort of short film while on a shakeout cruise in the Florida Keys this Summer and possibly take her to the Bahamas next year.

All of our MOCO products are for timelapse or stopmotion and as you say, its slowed down a lot recently. Our next product will be a focus system for realtime video. Hopefully there are a lot more people shooting video than timelapse, or I may have to sell the house and live on the boat.


Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:41 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
The compelling reason is i will be machining a lot of Mdf and foam in the day job . I hope to have a fourth rotary axis so i will be able to carve polystyrene

Just think air cooled is asking for problems . Besides water cooled is know issue my laser is water cooled . Just a fountain pump and a bucket of water really . Also a good idea to install a flow switch just to make sure the water is circulating.
Should hopefully be able to get back onto it next week .
D1


Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:34 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Thanks James.

The CNC router made building the guitar a cinch. I downloaded a drawing of a Fended Telecaster, converted it to a DXF, imported it into CamBam and then used the arcs function to follow the shape of the body and reduced it to 75% of the original size. Making it in layers (which is what Brian May did when he hand-built his guitar in 1963) made cutting the internal cavities simpler and removed any depth-of-cut issues I would have had with my existing tools.
When I did the design I hadn't discovered the ability of the updated CamBam to vectorsie bitmaps or it's inclusion of spline curves which would have made the job even easier.

The inherrent inaccuracies in the machine showed up in the need to sand the outside edges to make the three layers fit exactly together and when I used it to mark the fret positions. The intonation is acceptable (especially for slide ;-) ) but the errors are visible. Fortunately I got a nice soild bench drill press for Christmas and was able to use it as a spindle sander for the body. I didn't video those bits or the painting, partly because my main aim in the video was to show how the CNC machine was used, partly because there is so little room in my workshop and partly because I'm just lazy.

For the guitar buffs out there: The scale length is 610mm (24 inches) which is shorter than a standard Fender scale, much shorter than a Gibson but the same as Brian May's Red Special.

Kit

PS there's a video on the internet somewhere where a man measures the noise levels from both an air-cooled and a water-cooled router spindle. The water cooled unit is MUCH quieter which is a significant issue if you want to work near other people.

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Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:13 pm
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
That'll be a new router then...

Attachment:
FormerRouter.jpg
FormerRouter.jpg [ 69.93 KiB | Viewed 342 times ]


Does anybody have experience with the 400W brushless router spindles available on eBay? I thought I'd look at one of these rater than another mains powered hand rourter. Here's an example link.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CNC-400W-Bru ... SwubRXKsSX

Kit

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Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:59 pm
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Hi Kit thats not good is it .As i say i have one of those routers and it seems very well made and you managed to kill it . Maybe not a solid as i thought
Work resumed on router most of z axis done now just needs a cover for top part then all expensive slider bits will be covered.
Installed a proximity sensor and a adjustable hard end stop in case sensor fails . Trammed up rails with gauge so perfectly parallel and works very nicely . Only thing i weighs just over 17kg which i think is a good thing . But could be wrong on that one .
[flickr]Image2017-04-13 16.56.42 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
[flickr]Image2017-04-14 14.00.05 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
[flickr]Image2017-04-14 14.30.27 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
So will get on with y and control box yet . Will have a chance to fire up spindel then . Sorry kit i have any experience of those spindle you have found try trawling the cnc forums they are a bit busier than this one these days
D1


Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:43 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Thats going to be one very beefy router. Makes my little thing look like a toy. Can hardly wait to see it make something.

Edward, please post some pictures and info about your tool changer and also how you script the movements to run it. I think many of us would be interested in adding this useful tool to our routers. Not sure about everyone else, but the router is going to be used for milling small stuff as well as cutting flat plates until a CNC mill can be afforded.


Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:54 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Hi guys,

D1, good to see that you're moving on with your router. It looks very solid and I think a big mass always helps with these type of machines.

My CNC milling is going well. I know there is some pleasure and milling things manually, the old school way, but equally there is also great pleasure in designing something and then seeing it being cut beautifully and shiny and perfectly accurate with an automatic CNC conversion that you've made. The emphasis is in the design of a concept, rather than its execution.

I decided to settle for the manual tool changer for the moment because frankly it takes two seconds to change tools with this rapid TTS holder. My g-code includes the M6 tool change code that in turn executes another c code which sends the machine up to have a good clear space to change the tool, it halts the g code at this point, then when you have changed it, you press the continue button and the new tool goes down back to cutting.

Generally I change tools 3 or 4 times during a cut. Typically 8mm endmill, then maybe a smaller 3mm endmill to finish the small corners, then a finish contour pass and finally a chamfer for the edges. Sometimes it involves drilling, which in itself requires a spotting drill as well as the drill bit. So you can see why a quick tool change is convenient.

One nice thing that I recommend if you haven't got one is a touch plate to set the Z axis. I made one recently and it's great and always accurate. Here is the link to the video to see it, if you are interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhsoZ_htPko

And this is my quick tool changer contraption, you just press down on the lever and the tool is out immediately. I use tool offsets so that the g-code automatically reads off a table that contains all my tool lengths and the mill adjusts the Z height automatically when I change the tool:

Image




Lastly, I haven't missed the mill wheels at all. I have everything connected to a Logitech wireless gamepad so I can even cut "manually" for little jobs like squaring stock where writing G-code would be too much bother.

Keep posting guys, to keep the forum alive:)


Ed


Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:15 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Hi Edward think you have finally become a CNC convert as you say you can spend more time designing rather than machining .
I never missed the hand wheels either thought i would but you get so used of driving the steppers it seems daft to go back to hand wheels .
Due to my hatred of changing tools i even drill with the 3mm ali cut mill works fine .
More progress on the router high voltage side all done on the controller. Just control side and connectors to do now .
[flickr] Image2017-04-19 16.50.26 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
[flickr]Image2017-04-19 11.06.15 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
So still a bit of life in the forum just !
D1


Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:48 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Nice the way you've managed to fit everything tidily in the computer box. I notice you are still using those drivers....if you have some spare cash, do yourself a favour and and treat yourself to 3x AM882 from ebay, you will be amazed at the difference, They also have stall protection, which means that if your axis decides to run away, the motor will automatically stop as soon as it detects an obstacle. It works so well, I can tell you from my own experience:)

Ed


Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:48 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Hi Edward yeah still using old drivers . The ones on my old mill having been running almost everyday for last three years without any problems at all . Also like dealing with CNC4YOU always very helpfull which means a lot .
My give your drivers a go on future special projects . Does the stall protection let the control software know or is position still lost ?
Back to build Y axis going well epoxy poured and leveled perfectly .
[flickr]Image2017-04-24 16.32.20 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
Hard to tell which is steel and which is epoxy
[flickr]Image2017-04-26 15.06.25 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
Rails fitted but not tramed yet but already a lot better than the gibs on my old mill . Which are always hard to adjust so no play but move freely and they do tend to free up over time . With the Hiwins no play at all
[flickr]Image2017-04-26 18.40.00 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
Just got to decide what colour now :D
D1


Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:49 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Think its just me on the forum these days :( Will finish off this build then that might be it .
Well got Y axis ballscrew fitted and everything runs nicely. All feeling very solid prob doesn't need the epoxy concrete filling but i may as well do it it may help with sound deadening .
[flickr] Image2017-05-07 18.20.04 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
[flickr]Image2017-05-07 18.19.50 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
On software front downloaded Fusion again and just looking at the Cam side of it this time . Def some advantages it you want quick machining but the the set up time is considerably longer so horses for courses really .
D1


Sun May 07, 2017 12:14 pm
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
I must say, you router is looking good, heavy duty, keep us posted as it develops into the finished product.
I don't have much to post at the moment. I've been doing some macro tests with my new head. The head is fine and solid, but I find that by the time I activate all the other axes, I do get vibes at big magnifications.

The solution is to shoot slow (undercranking) and then play back at normal speed. Plus a bit of warp stabiliser.

I've been trying my old Sony A7s because it's very good under low light, I'm using 3200 ISO at f11 and it's fine. I may get the A7s II because it has 4K and stabilisation, but I may wait for an answer to the GH5, as I am sure there will be something out there soon to compete with it. I am not getting the GH5 because I already have the GH4, and I am not too sure it is worth updating.

I am finding this video thing quite an effort and time investment. I am now not too sure it will pay off, so I am doing it just for my own fun, rather than as a commercially viable project.

Like you, I enjoy making things and pottering, but it is always nice if one can recover some of the costs.

Edward


Sun May 07, 2017 1:48 pm
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Hi Edward yes i saw your macro test . What really surprised me was that you possessed a dirty looking lens :D .
I do wonder if live video is the way to go with this sort of stuff . I have done quite a bit of macro stuff but stop frame a lot less problems rig wise and you can have nice long exposure so light is not such a issue . Of course if you have elements like smoke or running water stop frame isn't a goer but at any other time i would do stop frame .
I agree pottering is good but its always nice to cover the costs . I rent my rig out occasional so that covers that and the router should hopefully pay for itself very quickly . We will see .
D1


Sun May 07, 2017 11:23 pm
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
I bought that lens about 30 years ago, so it was second hand then. But everything looks less than perfect when you get your magnifying glass!

Yes, stop frame is one way, but clients wouldn't have the patience. So a good compromise is to reduce the shooting move speed by about a 3rd. You still need sufficient light though. Most of the problems happen when you fill the frame with lots of stuff that the video card needs to move at 25fps. This is fine on my computer, but most people's computers aren't that well equipped with a powerful graphics card, so you compromise by cutting bit rate, making it smaller frame, making slower moves, etc.

Edward


Mon May 08, 2017 12:06 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Bit more work on CNC filled the gantry with epoxy concrete . Sound and feel changed considerably very dead so should help keep the noise down . Only down side is it use quite a lot of epoxy which is quite expensive . I think for the main frame i will just use concrete its such a large area cost would be to much with epoxy .
[flickr]Image2017-05-12 12.02.35 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
[flickr]Image2017-05-18 19.43.47 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
Also mounted up motor for y axis turns fine and adjustment is easy .
[flickr]Image2017-05-11 18.25.38 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
[flickr]Image2017-05-11 18.28.25 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
Ready to level everything on the X axis now which is prob the most critical alignment just checked the precision of the spirit level . The photos shows the amount of bubble movement ya get just by slipping a single sheet of paper under one side.
[flickr] Image2017-05-18 11.16.02 by D 1, on Flickr [/flickr]
[flickr]Image2017-05-18 11.16.24 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
Getting their !
D1


Thu May 18, 2017 11:44 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Beautiful workmanship D1.

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Thu May 18, 2017 8:25 pm
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
My welding leaves a lot to be desired :D The epoxy leveling is resolving a lot of miss alignment caused by the welding processes i should really have gone to my mates and clamped everything down on is welding table . But think got away with it .
Hope all your projects going well .
D1


Fri May 19, 2017 12:57 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
It looks great from where I am sitting.

Yeah timelapse has had a bit of back seat for the moment but I have been working on music electronics stuff. Here's my latest synthesizer - The Therematron NOT. http://amongstprojects.blogspot.com.au/2017/05/therematron-upgrade_19.html which has taken longer than expected. Planning to be back to timelapse soon as I've had a film in the works for a couple of years now which is part of my next music release. When that will happens is anyone's guess.

As for my rig hardware I need to rebuild my multi SLA battery charger at some stage as the current one is continuing to malfunction and I'd like to work on improving my rig's realtime ability and stability.

Steve

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Fri May 19, 2017 7:28 pm
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Hi Steve well ya still keeping busy do you have any tunes from your synths anywhere ?
Had a day lining things up so hopefully all is level now we will see when i actually come to mill something . I will still be able to do a bit of adjustment with shims on the Z axis .
The Hiwins have machined flats on their sides so used that to get a good horizontal
[flickr]Image2017-05-21 17.14.59 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
Vertical was provided by weights and precision ground parallels . Lined these up as best as i could .
[flickr]Image2017-05-21 17.13.40 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]
All ready to pour
[flickr]Image2017-05-21 17.15.20 by D 1, on Flickr[/flickr]

Also been playing with 3D contour CAM in Fusion think got my head round it . Only problem i cant seem to get the Mach3 post processor working yet.
If ya out their Edward which post do you use ?
[flickr]ImageScreenshot (351) by D 1, on Flickr [/flickr]
D1


Sun May 21, 2017 9:42 am
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
Yes you can. Best place to quickly hear tracks is on my bandcamp page - https://amongstmyselves.bandcamp.com/. But you can access my tracks in itunes, pandora and spotify. Just search for Amongst Myselves. More info can be gained at my web site at http://www.amongstmyselves.com

Sorry can't help out with the Mach3 export. I do use Mach3 on my 3040 router but to it's basic level.

Steve.

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Sun May 21, 2017 2:55 pm
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Post Re: CNC Router Build
For posting with Fusion did you try the "Mach3Mill" option? Ed and I both use KmotionCNC which works with several of the generic options. There are often some minor commands that don't work but normally you can just edit them out of the list. In Kmotion you run a simulation to check the file and it shows when there is a problem.


Wed May 24, 2017 4:45 pm
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Posts: 1166
Post Re: CNC Router Build
Hi Gerald thought we lost ya hope things going well . On fusion front i had made one obvious mistake i had my X and Y wrong way round and the used dimensions may be wrong i didn't have mm selected . Did have Mach 3 mill selected though so not totally stupid not had a chance to check my changes yet . Fusion growing on me 3D contour in CamBam bit of a pain .
Hi Steve music really atmospheric perfect for a timelapse film . All ya need to do is get out their and shoot something :D
Ps gantry weighing about 50kg now this going to be one heavy router
D1


Thu May 25, 2017 12:54 am
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Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:36 pm
Posts: 322
Post Re: CNC Router Build
Hi there,

As Gerald explained, we use a different CNC program, so the processor may not apply to yours. I personally use Generic Haas , and for simple things I use Generic TinyG. but neither may work for you.

Router looking great.


I've kind of finished my simple and light head weighing 2Kg. It is fitted with 2 harmonic drives, I tested it at 3 secs per 360 degrees but it could go faster depending on the drive. All wiring is inside, cables passing through hollow shafts.

The camera is a GH5.



Image

Image


Thu May 25, 2017 7:36 am
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Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:18 pm
Posts: 1166
Post Re: CNC Router Build
Hi Edward you do do some amazingly clean work . Sure it works as well as it looks .
2kg mine came in about 5kg once the router done going to re machine and see how thin a wall section i can get away with . Same design more or less just a lot less ali. Think i over did it last time seems to be my way at mo :D
D1


Thu May 25, 2017 8:13 am
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Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:36 pm
Posts: 322
Post Re: CNC Router Build
Thank you D1. Remember the Apple Mac towers? Well, that's what I use for work and the head is kind of inspired by them, in my own little way, of course:)

My previous one was around 5Kg too, far too heavy. This one works like it should, with no backlash due to the little harmonic drives. And I am using steppers this time, reduced 50:1

I won't be machining much for the moment, now it's filming time and improving my After Effects skills.

Ed


Thu May 25, 2017 8:44 am
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