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 End of the Little Bramper? 
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Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:30 am
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Post End of the Little Bramper?
It looks like the Little Bramper is no longer going to be produced? I can't tell exactly what the situation is from the website, but it appears Mr. Bethell is going to be busy/traveling for some time, and once the current production run of Brampers is done there won't be any more. More info here:

http://www.thewhippersnapper.com/LittleBramper/Site/How_To_Order.html


Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:03 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
HangGlider wrote:
It looks like the Little Bramper is no longer going to be produced? I can't tell exactly what the situation is from the website, but it appears Mr. Bethell is going to be busy/traveling for some time, and once the current production run of Brampers is done there won't be any more. More info here:

http://www.thewhippersnapper.com/LittleBramper/Site/How_To_Order.html


I dont think he is making much money off of those. If anyone wants one they better act fast.

i have one and i love it, its the best intervalometer i have used.

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Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:05 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
I know there was discussion in the early stages of the Bramper's development about the printed circuit board layout, schematics, and perhaps the source code being placed into the public domain. I wonder if Mr. Bethell is still considering that option... I suppose it could tick off customers that have paid for and received a Little Bramper already, but they'd need to weigh the value they've received (being able to get an assembled, tested, and supported product that they've been able to use for awhile) against the unknowns of assembling the device from scratch, doing the programming themselves, etc.

In the meantime, I've ordered mine!

Jack Ripper wrote:
HangGlider wrote:
It looks like the Little Bramper is no longer going to be produced? I can't tell exactly what the situation is from the website, but it appears Mr. Bethell is going to be busy/traveling for some time, and once the current production run of Brampers is done there won't be any more. More info here:

http://www.thewhippersnapper.com/LittleBramper/Site/How_To_Order.html


I dont think he is making much money off of those. If anyone wants one they better act fast.

i have one and i love it, its the best intervalometer i have used.


Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:23 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
I consider it a good value to get one that has already been built.

If he does release the information i might be able to mill out circuit boards. That is probably going to be one of the big stumbling blocks for people. I have a CNC i have been learning to use to etch my own boards, i ran off my first circuit board a week ago, it was a total failure as a working circuit but a major success for learning and understanding what it is i did wrong.

unfortunatly my laptop completly crashed on me last week so i had to pick up a new one, but my PCB files were not saved on my jumpdrive so i have to re-draw them.

I had played with the idea of making some arduino based bulb ramper shields with data collection to work on a large scale bulb ramping curve project where people get thier data from thier successful bramps and make the data public, figuring somebody would figure a good way to use that information and make an automated bulb ramper that runs off pre-defined bramp curves based on location and time of year, and wont get confused by clouds.

That project fell on the back burner. Maybe ill re-tackle that this fall.

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Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:10 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Tom's in town and I'm meeting with him today.. I'll see if I can get the full story.


Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:31 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
well I might just order one. thanks. Don't even have a canon body yet though


Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:10 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Jay, any chance of Dynamic Perception licencing and producing them as an extra product?
The MX2 could even be easily be integrated to an external trigger for the bramper.

The Bramper is a great product. Tom should be charging more.

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Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:07 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Antz wrote:
Jay, any chance of Dynamic Perception licencing and producing them as an extra product?
The MX2 could even be easily be integrated to an external trigger for the bramper.

The Bramper is a great product. Tom should be charging more.

+1 to that. Tom had some other cool devices on the burner - multicam and stereo brampers. Both would be great additions to the DP line up if Tom was willing to licence the design. I have one of the multicam units and it works a treat.


Jack Ripper wrote:
I had played with the idea of making some arduino based bulb ramper shields with data collection to work on a large scale bulb ramping curve project where people get thier data from thier successful bramps and make the data public, figuring somebody would figure a good way to use that information and make an automated bulb ramper that runs off pre-defined bramp curves based on location and time of year, and wont get confused by clouds.


Bramp curves do work. As you say, they vary by time of year and latitude. Last year I developed a rule of thumb system that uses Civil, Nautical, Astronomical twilight predictions and adjusts the curves appropriately. It worked fine for a project I did in Sep 2011 - http://vimeo.com/35544430 (password - lakedorasunsetsunrise). The generated script was fed to Tom's multicam device.

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Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:49 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
I just ordered mine! :)

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Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:28 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
ordered! Got friends with canons for now to try out bulb ramping


Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:22 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Ordered, stoked to try it out. Thanks for the heads up!

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Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:50 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
I'm really bummed about this, last week he had posted that he was waiting on a new shipment of LCD screens, so I waited to order one. I checked back just today and now it says he's Sold Out. I wanted this so bad. Anyone have a solution?

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Tue May 01, 2012 5:52 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Kmotion wrote:
I'm really bummed about this, last week he had posted that he was waiting on a new shipment of LCD screens, so I waited to order one. I checked back just today and now it says he's Sold Out. I wanted this so bad. Anyone have a solution?


I am not sure how it will stack up against the little b, but this time lapse divice has built in bulb ramping and looks really promising! http://www.timelapseplus.com/

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Tue May 01, 2012 6:31 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
I have a gut feeling (which is worth exactly what you paid for it) that there's a solution in the works. Milapse was going to try to get us more info on the situation after meeting with the creator of the Little Bramper. I guess we're in "wait and see" mode right now.


Tue May 01, 2012 6:33 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
The little bramper is worth a lot more than what Tom charges us imo...Which I think says something about Mr. Bethell (ie...someone who is making something out of love for the community and artform rather than for profit). These days there are other viable options such as GBTimelapse or magiclantern, but I still find that nothing does a better job than dialing in the shot manually with the bramper. I've gotten way more than my money's worth out of my lil Brampers (thanks Tom!).

Even the simple Canon intervalometer sells for more than 2x what Mr. Bethell charges...while the bramper is a very well honed tool for advanced users. If it was in a nice case with connections that won't slip out so you can hold the device in your hand without worrying about messing it up, it would be even more valuable...*nudge nudge*....

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Wed May 02, 2012 5:01 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
P.S. All those other solutions will never be as good as the little bramper unless they start adding PC connectors to read back the shutter signal like the little bramper does.

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Wed May 02, 2012 5:03 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Daniel Kelly Brown wrote:
Kmotion wrote:
I'm really bummed about this, last week he had posted that he was waiting on a new shipment of LCD screens, so I waited to order one. I checked back just today and now it says he's Sold Out. I wanted this so bad. Anyone have a solution?


I am not sure how it will stack up against the little b, but this time lapse divice has built in bulb ramping and looks really promising! http://www.timelapseplus.com/


This could be interesting, I also just discovered this Arduino project, but of course it would take a lot of time to build and perfect (which I just don't have, rather buy a built and perfected product).



http://www.photosbykev.com/wordpress/20 ... l-cameras/

I agree though, I would be willing to pay more for the Little Bramper than what he is selling it for, if that would help him keep up with the demand of the community.

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Wed May 02, 2012 5:39 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Delrious wrote:
If it was in a nice case with connections...


This is my one, I added a couple of DC converters so I can run it off 12v, and also have a 7.8v output to run the camera.
There is still enough room in the case for me to add a small pulse width modulator board that could run a dew heater or act as another motor controller too.

Attachment:
Bramper1.jpg
Bramper1.jpg [ 53.44 KiB | Viewed 17705 times ]

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Thu May 03, 2012 3:29 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Antz wrote:

This is my one, I added a couple of DC converters so I can run it off 12v, and also have a 7.8v output to run the camera.
There is still enough room in the case for me to add a small pulse width modulator board that could run a dew heater or act as another motor controller too.


Very slick!

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Thu May 03, 2012 4:04 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Kmotion wrote:

This could be interesting, I also just discovered this Arduino project, but of course it would take a lot of time to build and perfect (which I just don't have, rather buy a built and perfected product).

http://www.photosbykev.com/wordpress/20 ... l-cameras/

I agree though, I would be willing to pay more for the Little Bramper than what he is selling it for, if that would help him keep up with the demand of the community.


Obviously, I'm a little biased about LightRails-derived projects (*grin*), but I still think a lot of the ones "including light sensors" are missing the mark, b/c they're using basic photodiodes without well-documented sensitivities to specific light spectrums relevant to photography. When asked thus fare, none of them have been able to give any deep technical details on the limitations and capabilities of their solutions. I also haven't seen any of them make mention of the source of their photoptic conversions - black body radiators or well establish subjective standards. Just "having a light sensor and reading a value" is a poor way to determine the appropriate exposure for a digital sensor in this day and age. The in-camera meters are far more sophisticated than that.

I do intend to return to LightRails before too long and work out the last kinks in it, I'm still not sure it'll ever be a "nearly perfect" solution though, there are too many variables in making a good shot. However, having a varied deployment (like all of spot, incident, and reflective metering modes) would make it go a lot further. (Also, adding in spectral density for most common light temperatures would help as well - so far, that kind of data needs to be paid handsomely for.)

!c


Thu May 03, 2012 6:53 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Not to mention that if you have things like clouds floating by and intermittantly blocking out the sun, it is going to have an effect on the bulb ramping.

the fact the earth spins at a constant rate, and that the sunset has very predictable behavior, it is only a matter of time untill somebody figures out the proper way to calculate the light changes based off latitude, time, and date and run a fully automated bulb ramping system.

you just need the right talent and resources.

which in this case is probably not me. lol

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Thu May 03, 2012 7:13 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
So..... DP isn't buying the little bramper and offering it as a DP product? That seemed like such a good plan.


Thu May 03, 2012 7:20 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Jack Ripper wrote:
the fact the earth spins at a constant rate, and that the sunset has very predictable behavior, it is only a matter of time untill somebody figures out the proper way to calculate the light changes based off latitude, time, and date and run a fully automated bulb ramping system.


It's only relevant for use in the plains, where there is no air pollution. =(

Buildings, mountains, clouds, and air particulates will have a major impact on any generalized algorithm like that. As they say, "the sunny sixteen rule will only get you so far" =) That's why I think the answer lies in evaluative metering, and, in fact, the best avenue right now is the magic lantern -in combination- with something like the little BRamper. The evaluative metering in-camera is way beyond what most of us can DIY, and already takes into account white balance and chip-specific sensitivity. Now, if you could just export that data to an external device which can take real (i.e. with PC feedback) bulb timing control into play, you'd be golden. No issues, especially with true TTL metering.

!c


Thu May 03, 2012 7:21 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
sciencelookers wrote:
So..... DP isn't buying the little bramper and offering it as a DP product? That seemed like such a good plan.


If we were in talks to do that, it would behoove us not to discuss any such matters until we completed and finalized such a deal. If we weren't in talks to do that, it would behoove us not to say we weren't in talks to do that... Kinda catch-22 on our end. =)

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Thu May 03, 2012 7:23 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
They may or may not be in negotiations or lack there-of with the creators (or not) of the little or big bramper or non-bramper for the possible or purely speculative consideration of the purchase or lack-there-of said or non said item in question, or maybe in answer.

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Thu May 03, 2012 9:05 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Jack Ripper wrote:
They may or may not be in negotiations or lack there-of with the creators (or not) of the little or big bramper or non-bramper for the possible or purely speculative consideration of the purchase or lack-there-of said or non said item in question, or maybe in answer.


Yeah, what he said :D

!c


Thu May 03, 2012 11:18 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Antz wrote:
Delrious wrote:
If it was in a nice case with connections...


This is my one, I added a couple of DC converters so I can run it off 12v, and also have a 7.8v output to run the camera.
There is still enough room in the case for me to add a small pulse width modulator board that could run a dew heater or act as another motor controller too.



This is my custom one...although I usually leave it at home when and bring Tom's when I fly (because mine just looks so bad...worried it will get confiscated). Runs on Arduino with a lithium backpack for power and accepts an input signal for shoot-move (although I never use shoot-move anymore). It could be a lot smaller.

Image

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Thu May 03, 2012 12:44 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Jack Ripper wrote:
Not to mention that if you have things like clouds floating by and intermittantly blocking out the sun, it is going to have an effect on the bulb ramping.

the fact the earth spins at a constant rate, and that the sunset has very predictable behavior, it is only a matter of time untill somebody figures out the proper way to calculate the light changes based off latitude, time, and date and run a fully automated bulb ramping system.

you just need the right talent and resources.

which in this case is probably not me. lol


GBTimelapse does this. Like literally everything you said. It's very advanced, but still limited by the bulb input limitations on fast exposures (it can still do it, but defaults to Av or Tv mode once it passed the threshold and can't specify a faster shutter). It also doesn't understand aesthetics of day to nights...it just understands what the meter and time tells it, but curves can be recorded, manipulated and repeated.

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Thu May 03, 2012 12:52 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
thats awesome, i predicted something that already happened. hahahaha

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Thu May 03, 2012 1:41 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
shutterdrone wrote:
Jack Ripper wrote:
the fact the earth spins at a constant rate, and that the sunset has very predictable behavior, it is only a matter of time untill somebody figures out the proper way to calculate the light changes based off latitude, time, and date and run a fully automated bulb ramping system.


It's only relevant for use in the plains, where there is no air pollution. =(

Buildings, mountains, clouds, and air particulates will have a major impact on any generalized algorithm like that. As they say, "the sunny sixteen rule will only get you so far" =) That's why I think the answer lies in evaluative metering, and, in fact, the best avenue right now is the magic lantern -in combination- with something like the little BRamper. The evaluative metering in-camera is way beyond what most of us can DIY, and already takes into account white balance and chip-specific sensitivity. Now, if you could just export that data to an external device which can take real (i.e. with PC feedback) bulb timing control into play, you'd be golden. No issues, especially with true TTL metering.

!c



Correct me if I'm wrong but having used the Bramper for over a year, I'm of the opinion that the reason the Bramper works so well when implemented as Tom has designed it, is BECAUSE it does not rely on metering one bit. For all the factors you mention: clouds, mountains etc...... real life does in fact change in terms of available light. Part of what drives me crazy about all these incoming kickstarter (and magic lantern) bulb ramping apps is that they determine an upcoming exposure based on light readings. With a clear sky, that's fine but I WANT a dip in exposure when a cloud passes in front of the moon or sun because that's what's actually happening. The metering approach just sets one up for a flicker problem. A constant bramp curve circumvents this of course but it doesn't seem like that's what a lot of these new toys are doing. I really like Tom's approach of setting only a rate based on what's already been shot.


Fri May 04, 2012 8:56 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
KevinB wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but having used the Bramper for over a year, I'm of the opinion that the reason the Bramper works so well when implemented as Tom has designed it, is BECAUSE it does not rely on metering one bit. For all the factors you mention: clouds, mountains etc...... real life does in fact change in terms of available light. Part of what drives me crazy about all these incoming kickstarter (and magic lantern) bulb ramping apps is that they determine an upcoming exposure based on light readings. With a clear sky, that's fine but I WANT a dip in exposure when a cloud passes in front of the moon or sun because that's what's actually happening. The metering approach just sets one up for a flicker problem. A constant bramp curve circumvents this of course but it doesn't seem like that's what a lot of these new toys are doing. I really like Tom's approach of setting only a rate based on what's already been shot.


Thresholding easily solves the problem of slight dips in exposure, you require X periods of change before making a change, and you limit the rate of change to create smooth, natural-looking transistions. If you're metering properly, you will achieve the correct results - if you're taking a point reading when shooting a wide-angle scene, you will have problems. The problem with most of those "metering" solutions is that they use un-tuned LDRs and just "shoot a bunch and tweak the parameters until it seems to work for me."

Correctly applied, metering eliminates -all- flicker. Dips in exposure from clouds can create hard flicker depending on your frame rate. If clouds are moving quickly and you have a moderate frame rate, foreground may seem to flicker hard. Thus, we might say - algorithmic tends to work best if you're filming a landscape scene and you want texture in exposure, if I was filming a city scene where I can't see the horizon, mountains, or much of the sky, I wouldn't want variation caused by clouds prior to sunset, when no such variation would exist after sunset.

Neither method (completely algorithmic with no ability to read the actual situation or reactive scene-based metering) is capable of understanding "artistic intent" without user feedback.

!c


Fri May 04, 2012 10:33 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
shutterdrone wrote:


Correctly applied,



As with anything........this is certainly the key point ;)

Having some sort of threshold that can't be exceeded as far as variance between frame exposures or a limit on ramp rate could accoplish this for sure.


I have to admit, I haven't really had a whole lot of problems with hard cloud shade transitions.......but in those situations I'm usually 'oversampling' with small intervals. I've come to really appreciate the ebbs and flows over the landscape of smoothly dropping and recovering sunlight levels.


Fri May 04, 2012 11:22 am
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Antz wrote:
Delrious wrote:
If it was in a nice case with connections...


This is my one, I added a couple of DC converters so I can run it off 12v, and also have a 7.8v output to run the camera.
There is still enough room in the case for me to add a small pulse width modulator board that could run a dew heater or act as another motor controller too.

Attachment:
Bramper1.jpg

Quote:


Where did you get your project box from?

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Wed May 09, 2012 7:35 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Antz wrote:
Delrious wrote:
If it was in a nice case with connections...


This is my one, I added a couple of DC converters so I can run it off 12v, and also have a 7.8v output to run the camera.
There is still enough room in the case for me to add a small pulse width modulator board that could run a dew heater or act as another motor controller too.


Badass Box! I am going to have to fashion myself something similar. I would also like to know where you got the parts for the box.

Headed out to the NYC for a little time lapse mission with the little b and about 150 pounds of other time lapse accoutrements.
Wish I purchased the little b earlier in my time lapse career, but lest I got my hands on one before no mas ;) Thanks again for the heads up Chris and for your posts about how
cool the little b is!

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Wed May 09, 2012 10:14 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Kmotion wrote:
Where did you get your project box from?


I just got it at my local electronics store. I think this is the same one on Amazon... http://www.amazon.com/Desktop-Plastic-P ... 416&sr=1-8

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Wed May 09, 2012 10:15 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Wish I saw this thread sooner, sold out now :/

Anyone know of another good alternative?


Fri May 11, 2012 8:41 pm
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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
a bit pricey but much more features:
http://www.promotesystems.com/


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Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Holy_13 wrote:
a bit pricey but much more features:
http://www.promotesystems.com/


I have one with the latest firmware, it's a total shame.. The way the Promote has implemented bulb ramping is over simplified. You can only set a begin exposure time and and end exposure time over a total period of time. The interval is limited to the longest exposure time so for example if your end exposure time is 30 seconds then your locked into 30+ second intervals. No interactivity, set and run are your only options. No ISO shift, even though it's in theory capable of this!

It's a great HDR device for cams that don't have good bracketing features but overall still lacks in many ways. It's amazing to me because this is one of the only embedded USB host controllers on the market and it's still not quite fully developed.

EDIT! I was not aware of the sub menu 'enable advanced bramping' option when I wrote this. Clearly I was mistaken, there are advanced features available in the Promote .. J


Sat May 12, 2012 6:41 am
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Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:05 am
Posts: 289
Location: CO
Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
xelfer wrote:
Wish I saw this thread sooner, sold out now :/

Anyone know of another good alternative?


TimeLapse + looks promising: http://www.timelapseplus.com/

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Sat May 12, 2012 7:05 am
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Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:21 pm
Posts: 340
Post Re: End of the Little Bramper?
Daniel Kelly Brown wrote:
TimeLapse + looks promising: http://www.timelapseplus.com/


We shall see in June. ;)


Sat May 12, 2012 7:24 am
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