It is currently Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:41 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 74 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
 The Milapse Panning System 
Author Message
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:37 am
Posts: 104
Location: OC-Socal
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
I have been wanting to make a dolly for timelpase after seeing a scene from someones reel where it pans across a cemetary.

I need to figure outsome speed and distance settings and if pully size will amke a huge difference.

I also want to figure out a kill switch to stop it at the end of the rail so I can leave it un-attended.

_________________
5DMKII,7D Youtube Flickr


Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:54 am
Profile
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:15 pm
Posts: 1696
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
Joey, I think the most important thing is having a SUPER solid and super smooth dolly platform, preferably made of metal parts. I've used lots of PVC pipe dollies, and they are usually too rickety. Having a solid, smooth dolly that can be easily leveled is the real trick.


Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:39 am
Profile
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
Very cool! l love it... I wonder if you'll need some sort of consistent 'drag' so that it doesn't 'jerk n roll'?? Know what I mean?


Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:52 am
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 2:15 pm
Posts: 1696
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
for sure. a 5% grade, for example, would give you some resistance. the trouble is the wheels and the track. if they are not butter silky smooth, you will get jerkiness.


Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:12 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:37 am
Posts: 104
Location: OC-Socal
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
timescapes wrote:
Joey, I think the most important thing is having a SUPER solid and super smooth dolly platform, preferably made of metal parts. I've used lots of PVC pipe dollies, and they are usually too rickety. Having a solid, smooth dolly that can be easily leveled is the real trick.


Yeah , all ready I can tell I would need at least metal rails if I wanted to use it in the wild. My perfect set up would be 5ft lengths that went into each other to make 10ft rails for portability.

milapse wrote:
Very cool! l love it... I wonder if you'll need some sort of consistent 'drag' so that it doesn't 'jerk n roll'?? Know what I mean?


When I tried it in the house it was really smooth, I think it was jerky because of the grass as the dolly ran over it. My plan is to have the head mounted to the end of the rails where it would be solid. I just haven't had the time to build and test.

I usually test stuff like this then follow up months later, but Im hoping to have it done before my Dove hunting trip out by the Salton Sea. Every year there are spectacular thunder storms, awesome sunsets, and lots of stars.

_________________
5DMKII,7D Youtube Flickr


Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:44 pm
Profile

Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:00 am
Posts: 6
Post Attaching Bogen legs to Milapse head
To Mr. Andrew Curtis,


Would you mind expanding on how you made your post to fit on your tripod legs? I have the same legs and would like to modify my Milapse Head to fit them. I was wondering mostly what size/type of tubing that is as well as how you got the 3/8th x 24 bolt to fit in the bottom. If anyone else might know that would be awesome to know how to make this setup. Thank you very much.


Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:58 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:54 pm
Posts: 888
Location: Aars, Denmark
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
If you run into issues with your Meade motorized mount I can recommend joining the Meade_Autostar group on Yahoo. Lots of info there, and there's an extremely helpful and knowledgeable guy in there (Dick Seymour) who doesn't seem to leave any post unanswered. I've had my fair share of issues with these mounts. Runaway slews happen if battery voltage drops too low (note: Tenergy batteries recommended, random cheap eBay batteries NOT recommended!), but I have also had that happen for other reasons. Once the drive would not leave max speed until I did a "calibrate motors" which fixed the issue. I may well have fried some electronics in one of my mounts by reversing the polarity of my battery package, so that could explain the frequent motor faults with that one. :oops:

From what i gather, MILapse is working on some software to control the Meade mounts, but until he manages to finish it you might like to know that there's a small application called My497Scope that provides an interface for controlling your meade mounts via simple scripts (requires a 495/497 Autostar). You will find this in the files section of the above mentioned Yahoo group along with tutorials for use. For Linux there is a program called INDI that will allow you to write custom Python scripts to control your Meade drive. The potential of this is that you can install Linux on PDAs, so a setup where you have full scripting control over both your camera (via gPhoto) and your Meade mount via a PDA is entirely possible and would be highly portable. However, good luck making that work in practice. I've had my shot at it and gave up (couldn't get the help needed to compile INDI, and gPhoto would not run reliably).

_________________
Nikon D3s, D600, Canon 5D II, S3, SX100.
Feature film Beneath the Aurora on Vimeo.


Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:26 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:14 pm
Posts: 128
Location: SW Va
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
Wow Lucasberg. I had every intention of doing the same thing actually. Good Job! It's exciting to see it in action. I was really impressed with your dolly videos on youtube as well.


Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:29 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:37 am
Posts: 104
Location: OC-Socal
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
Thanks Drag0,

I'm looking for metal pipes for outdoor use of the dolly. Once I find lose I'll try it out in a timelapse.

_________________
5DMKII,7D Youtube Flickr


Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:48 pm
Profile
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
In case anyone is looking for one... they are back in stock at telescope warehouse for $150 WITH an L-bracket for your camera!

http://shop.telescope-warehouse.com/pro ... ductId=119


Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:47 am

Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:15 am
Posts: 20
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
Thanks MILAPSE !
A very good new !
I will place an order as soon as possible...
I'm still designing an home made night timelapse mount, and fighting with PIC microcontrollers !
bye !


Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:14 am
Profile

Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:15 am
Posts: 20
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
hi,
The price is subject to change 30/06 : 150 $USD
today 170 $USD !
Milapse can you tell me if it's possible to plug a cable directly to the mount to computerize ?
This mount comes only with the 494 Meade controller :cry:
(...)


Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:04 am
Profile

Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:14 am
Posts: 26
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
I emailed them to ask for a L Bracket, and they said they r all out.

fyi.


Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:13 pm
Profile
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
I'm totally confused as well all... I'm getting conflicting messages.


Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:03 pm
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:48 pm
Posts: 201
Location: Miles City, Montana
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
I think the site with the MILapse system has settled on the higher $170 per unit (includes shipping). I just ordered one and can't wait to use it.

_________________
http://vimeo.com/user1477834/videos
Canon, Arduino, AE, etc.


Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:54 am
Profile

Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:51 pm
Posts: 11
Location: York, England (UK)
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
I am trying to find a good source of the Meade head in the UK. What part number am I looking for? Is it just a Meade DS-2000 mount? All I seem to be able to find are full telescope 'kits' that include the mount and controller, e.g. the DS2090 AT TC 90mm, which means buying the full kit and effectively ignoring the telescope!

Any one have any recommendations for a good UK source?

Thanks...


Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:02 pm
Profile

Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:36 pm
Posts: 1
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
pan-people are discussing a similar head here:
http://www.autopano.net/forum/t4555-wha ... n-panohead
be aware its merlin not marlin.
here is the inventor of the gigapanbot:
http://www.emrichs.de/gigapanbot/index-en.htm

michael przewrocki
http://www.europanorama.tk
http://www.europanorama.ch.vu
3dstereo-aeropanoramas
marspanoramas in 3dstereo


Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:42 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:34 pm
Posts: 626
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
I'm a bit confused about the Autostar controllers. I understand you can plug them into your PC's serial port and run 'sky tours' and such using scripts made up of Meade commands. It sounds vaguely useful for timelapses. If it is, what would you do with it?

_________________
Little Bramper website and on Timescapes
Link to Time-lapse FAQ


Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:36 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:54 pm
Posts: 888
Location: Aars, Denmark
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
astronomerroyal wrote:
I'm a bit confused about the Autostar controllers. I understand you can plug them into your PC's serial port and run 'sky tours' and such using scripts made up of Meade commands. It sounds vaguely useful for timelapses. If it is, what would you do with it?

I've tried shooting a total lunar eclipse at a remote location, tracking the moon with a tele lens from under the horizon because totality was just after moonrise. Can't do alignment during daylight, so to do approximate tracking I found coordinates for the moon, calculated the required az and alt tracking rates and wrote a script to do the tracking. Finding the moon's approximate location under the horizon was possible because it's opposite to the sun at an eclipse, and looking through the lens I could see the sun through the viewfinder and place it on the center focus point. So that's an example of something that *could* be done thanks to the scripting abilities. Of course, you can write scripts to make it pan whatever way you please, including gradually starting/stopping your pans like the Mumfords.

As a side note, when doing something like my moon eclipse project you really want to do a test run (if not more) to see if it works as intended. My plans to do a test run failed, and so the whole project failed accordingly - it doesn't matter how many things you do right as long as there's still one thing wrong. The numbers I had found for the tracking rate turned out to be for ETX mounts and are interpreted to different speeds on a DS mount. :-( Had another camera + DS mount set up as well which failed equally, though for other reasons that I can't even remember. I still get upset with myself just thinking about it...

_________________
Nikon D3s, D600, Canon 5D II, S3, SX100.
Feature film Beneath the Aurora on Vimeo.


Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:57 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:34 pm
Posts: 626
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
Perhaps I should've asked a slightly modified question; other than tracking celestial objects, is there much point in hooking up the autostar to a PC? In a practical sense would you bother, for example, synching the motion and camera like the Mumford does? Would you actually want to program trajectories that aren't simply straight slews?

The reason I ask is that I was thinking about that intervalometry program for graphing calculators which appeared on instructables.com. Some of those calculators have enough memory and speed to be able to emulate a serial link to the autostar and potentially do fancy things with the mount in the field. But then i wondered, what exactly would you do? I'm just trying to get a feeling of whether there's any scope for real improvement in using the Meade mount.

_________________
Little Bramper website and on Timescapes
Link to Time-lapse FAQ


Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:10 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:13 am
Posts: 27
Location: austin, texas
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
astronomerroyal wrote:
But then i wondered, what exactly would you do? I'm just trying to get a feeling of whether there's any scope for real improvement in using the Meade mount.



This is a very, very good question and I'd like to know other people's uses as well. Things seem to get very complicated very quickly with these time-lapses. Wouldn't it be nice if we could just have a stationary time-lapse and not have to have different angles of a pivoting camera just to keep the attention of the short attention span people? "Music videos" of the '70s are nothing more than a live show recorded or something like the Wall but now there's almost always computer graphics, 300 different angles , hundreds of singers and people in the film, lyrics on the screen, etc and the music still sucks. Why try and compensate for something unless you know the end result will suck but you still need a way to keep the attention of the viewer. I don't want to sound like I'm bashing a single person here because I have seen some of the greatest time-lapses from yall but let's try and not complicate things and focus on the photography aspect. Most of the time-lapses I have seen are ~1-2 minute long and if they are longer than that, they usually consist of two different time-lapses.

Don't listen to me...I'm just frustrated people don't have an attention span anymore. Yall do great, magnificent work but ask yourself if it always needs to be so complicated.

_________________
View my online videos: http://www.vimeo.com/reddreads


Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:38 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:40 pm
Posts: 166
Location: Montréal, Canada
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
:-) Rastasean, I understand your frustration about the complexity of moco shots. Moco is sometimes mandatory, but not always necessary. Remember that in general, a shot used in a documentary or other movie is 4-5 seconds, maybe up to 10-12 seconds at most. I have done timelapse shots on a commissioned or freelance basis for some documentaries, all stationary, and the longest shot used was 11 seconds on screen. Moco is less needed if your shot is of very short duration, or if there is a lot of movement on screen. Also, it is sometimes hard to edit a moco timelapse shot in a movie, just because the movement won't match the preceding or following shot. But sometimes, moco will add the extra punch to the shot and help to sell it. I am talking of timelapse sold as stock footage. The matter is different if you are making your own timelapse movie, where you can plan how the movement of different shots will be edited together.


Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:07 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:13 am
Posts: 27
Location: austin, texas
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
I would love to see some of your stock footage that you have sold, rlavoie. Time-lapses are an important in music videos, tv commercials, movies, tv shows, etc and the people who generally watch them don't have an understanding of how long that can take to setup. Its been a long time since I've seen the movie requiem for a dream but that time-lapse of the woman moving back and forth from room to room is very nice. Its one angle and it actually moves across the room. It was probably close to a minute in the movie and took (from what I remember hearing) 45-60 minutes to do.

With all this being said, again, I wouldn't mind owing one of the the Meads but only the 494 and only after I get a tripod and a head.

I'm thinking about this combo, what do you think. I know this is off topic from the opening post so it ma be a problem...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/control ... 449&is=REG
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/control ... 060&is=REG

The ball head may not be your favorite but I like it since I'll be using it in conjunction with a video camera.

_________________
View my online videos: http://www.vimeo.com/reddreads


Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:02 pm
Profile
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
IMHO. You'll see more and more moco incorporated into the 'run of the mill' timelapse shot as time goes on.

astronomerroyal wrote:
Perhaps I should've asked a slightly modified question; other than tracking celestial objects, is there much point in hooking up the autostar to a PC? In a practical sense would you bother, for example, synching the motion and camera like the Mumford does? Would you actually want to program trajectories that aren't simply straight slews?


Why? The first layer of possibility is the ability to do smooth acceleration/deceleration and as you mentioned the second layer of possibility is (as you also mention) complex motions such as curves waves and such.

There is also the potential of importing/exporting movements to programs like 3dstudio and the like... as well as the potential of repeat motions allowing composting and blending of different scenes at different speeds. I've tested PC scripting to do realtime super smooth pans which works really great (albeit you get some serious background noise from the motors...).


Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:15 pm
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:40 pm
Posts: 166
Location: Montréal, Canada
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
Rastasean, I would love to post some of these shots, but it was when I was still doing film... I only have the negs and the dailies for the stock footage I shot as freelance. I usually shot them on demand from the director and sold them as stock footage to the production afterwards. But you can watch the beginning of this National Film Board of Canada movie, Mont Rigaud: une colline parmi les hommes: http://www3.onf.ca/empreintes/tout-voir ... ediaDetail
I did all the timelapse shots of the opening sequence, up until sunrise. BTW, you can see northern lights dancing in one of the shots.

I also sold a few shots (all the timelapse on film and astronomical movie shots, including the solar eclipse at the end) for this movie: http://www3.nfb.ca/collection/films/fiche/?id=51124.
I tried to find the link for on-line screening, but did not find it.

Here is the link to one of the movies I directed. This is the link to the English version, but the official version is French:
http://www3.onf.ca/empreintes/tout-voir ... ediaDetail.
Lot of stock footage, but no timelapse! In my own movie! Can you believe this?


Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:02 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:40 pm
Posts: 166
Location: Montréal, Canada
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
Oh, Rastasean, for your choice of tripod and ball head, I think it is perfect for a small, light, timelapse set up.


Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:19 pm
Profile

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:10 am
Posts: 30
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
Just got my Milapse rig up and running. Thought i'd share how I did it. I've had the Meade head (with 497 controller) since november, but havn;t had teh time to play with it much. Had a bit of time this evening to mess around in the shop.

I have a gitzo GT2531LVL Tripod, and GH2780QR Ball Head. The way the post is slotted, it makes it quite difficult to machine a new post that can be attached to the meade head as Andrew did. Besides, the way the mounting screw is made, that would be silly anyways. All I had to do was take a 3/8 coarse thread bolt with a collar on it and use a hack saw to cut off the bolt head. Then simply cut 3/8 fine thread into the collar (the screw that came with the tripod is the closer one). The Fine thread goes into the meade base, (the hole in the base is quite deep), and the coarse thread screws into the tripod post (which is practically bottomless). After cutting the threads, I made sure It would all fit together, and there was no need to make either thread shorter (longer is probably more stable). Not exactly a huge Breakthrough, I just made a bolt that goes into my post that has the right thread for the meade head. lol.

As far as mounting my Ball head, I pretty much did the same thing as Andrew on page one, making sure to countersink the screws that go into the meade head, so the ball head can be mounted flush to the plate. Then I drilled and tapped a hole for a 3/8 bolt to mount the ball head to. I threw a lock washer in between, because it tends to back itself out when tightening on the ball head.

I had pretty crude tools so build this, so I guess one of my holes didn;t quite line up. oops! 3 screws is plenty anyhow. I wish I had access to the machine shop that my University had. I made all kinds of junk in there.

Now I just need to find time to get out shooting again.

Graham.


Image
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29261349@N04/3246031207/


Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:51 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:34 pm
Posts: 626
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
milapse wrote:
Why? The first layer of possibility is the ability to do smooth acceleration/deceleration and as you mentioned the second layer of possibility is (as you also mention) complex motions such as curves waves and such.

There is also the potential of importing/exporting movements to programs like 3dstudio and the like... as well as the potential of repeat motions allowing composting and blending of different scenes at different speeds. I've tested PC scripting to do realtime super smooth pans which works really great (albeit you get some serious background noise from the motors...).


MILapse, I hadn't thought of the realtime camcorder & 3D studio applications - suppose it also has use as a remote/stealth monitoring platform. I can't wait to see some timelapse-oriented (or just non-astronomy) software for these mounts. The total pricetag would still be less than a pro level ballhead, and I'm sure a lot of pros and serious amateurs getting swept along with the digital wave would be interested in it (but up till now probably hadn't thought about it.)

_________________
Little Bramper website and on Timescapes
Link to Time-lapse FAQ


Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:53 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:50 am
Posts: 329
Location: France
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
Interesting method that is not to much expensive ;)

Might go this way but as i'm thinking of doing some Asto photo shoots, i was thing of buying it with a telescope too !
It is more expensive but could use it for timeslaps and astro shoots ;)

As i'm concern about my camera weight (D3 +14/24 is about 8 lbs or 4kg) should this kind of system might be tougher ?
http://www.meade.com/etx_premier/index.html The ETX125-AT one !
It use an #497 controller so does it should work with Milapse software ?

Thanks

_________________
Timelapses.fr http://www.Timelapses.fr
Pro http://www.bziegler.com
Blog http://blog.bziegler.com

Nikon D800 - Canon 5DMkIII- scalped 10.5 - 15mm sigma - 14/24 - 17/35 - 24/70 - 70/200 - 28/300 105 macro - 50 f1.4 - 85 f1.4- 24 f1.4


Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:32 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:51 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
Just like to add an easy way to attach the milapse unit to a normal tripod without needing any tools, grab a manfrotto quick release plate, remove the existing camera size bolt and replace it with a AN6-5, 3/8-24 bolt, which is a common aircraft airframe bolt avalible from Aircraft parts distributors. Attach the plate to the milapse unit with the bolt and problem solved!


Attachments:
IMG_0597.JPG [26.34 KiB]
Downloaded 803 times
IMG_0596.JPG [22.88 KiB]
Downloaded 803 times
Wed May 19, 2010 6:42 pm
Profile
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
Luuk - that's a great mounting suggestion. Is that an RC2 or RC4 QR plate you're using? I'm trying to make this work with my RC2 QR plates, but the 3/8-24 bolts I've tried (from local hardware & auto parts stores) have too "thick" of a hex head. It extends very slightly below the bottom of the QR plate. Haven't tried to find an actual aircraft bolt, though - do those have shallower hex heads? I may have to try grinding down the head thickness by a couple mm if I can't find a better bolt.


Fri May 21, 2010 12:00 pm
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:51 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
The Aircaft Bolt is a very snug fit, the AN6-5a has a hole though the head for a lockwire and seems to be a few mil thiner then the auto parts bolt, you might have to grind a bit off, also if you make room for a washer it will hold a bit better.


Sun May 23, 2010 6:47 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:45 am
Posts: 1685
Location: Merritt Island, Florida, Estates Unitas
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
My Milapse head (Meade) has only been used 4 or 5 times but seems to be broken. It was working fine, then I changed the batteries. Now it only seems to move at the fastest speed. I have the controller with the numeric keypad. Normally, I wait for the hand controller to power up, then press mode then 1. That used to make it say speed= guide and pressing one of the direction keys would get it going very slow in that direction. The button could be clamped and that was it.

Now it says speed = guide for a second then goes back to the setup. Pressing a direction key moves it at maximum speed (not minimum). Pressing a direction key while it still says speed = guide does no good, it still moves at maximum. I went through all the menus several times and can't find anything active that shouldn't be. It just suddenly decided that it doesn't want to move at anything other thanthe fastest speed.

Any ideas? Has anyone had this problem or heard of anyone who has experienced this? Is this a problem with the hand controller? Or do I need a whole new drive? Its pretty discouraging, I hardly used this at all. I ran a few tests and about the time I was ready to start using it, the thing is broken already. Any ideas would be apreciated. Thanks


Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:42 am
Profile

Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:14 pm
Posts: 16
Post Re: The Milapse Panning System
sciencelookers - I am having the same problem. After discussing the process with Jay(Milapse) several times, I have concluded that I was doing everything correctly but the Azimuth slew rate would only work at Maximum. I contacted Meade and spoke with Jose. I described all the things I had done, resetting to factory specs, replacing batteries, and he finally concluded it was the 497 controller. Meade replaced it with a new "Audiostar" 497 which has the most recent firmware update. Unfortunately, this did not solve the problem. I get expected slew rates with the Altitude movement for all rates, but the Azimuth slew rate(horizontal) movement will only slew at Maximum. So I have tried to contact the retailer in Arizona for a replacement or refund. He will not answer my emails so I am out $250.

At this stage, I am beginning to think it is the chip/processor in the base itself. Two controls are not likely to be defective.

Anyone out there have any suggestions?


Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:14 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 74 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forums/DivisionCore. pozycjonowanie