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 3d timelapse 
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Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:33 am
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Post 3d timelapse
There is a lot of talk lately about 3d televisions coming out soon. I heard that ESPN and the discovery channel are planning on launching 3d channels.

Anyone ever tried making a 3d clip? Capturing the images with a dual camera set up would be simple enough but I would not know how to convert that into a suitable video format. I wonder if the discovery channel has published any minimum standards/requirements for 3d clips.

I would expect this to be a very big market when it does happen. There is probably only a small amount of 3d time lapse content currently available.

Motion control dollies would make a very interesting 3d effect.


Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:10 am
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
I've done proof of concept 3D time lapses with two 5Dmarkii's with 50 mm f1.4's bolted to a block of wood (not @ interocular distance, pushed apart to bring 3D depth out of landscapes, which is what I am most interested in). You can do your post processing/alignment in AE using stereo photo maker to generate the alignment data. There is a good (but pretty involved) tutorial here:

http://www.vimeo.com/6094201

3D time lapse is a hell of a lot more work/equipment than doing regular time lapse and requires more expensive equipment to get right (for example, a block of wood get's the job done, but is not anywhere near ideal - requires way to much eyeballing and guessing...I need some kind of custom bracket...I'd also like to play around with using laser levels to align and putting cameras like 100 feet apart with wireless triggers...). I've poked around with stock footage houses and no one wants 3D stuff - I think for 3d to make sense you need to get on board a project that can spend some money on the tech...

Ben

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:57 am
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
I think it's a great idea. I've wanted to do a 3D crowd shot, where the cameras are just above a moving crowd. I can't afford twice the equipment at this point. But there are some other options.

This group has a neat website with links to all things 3D, including many how-tos for regular photography or film. I imagine most tips carry over to time lapse.
http://www.ny3d.org/

I found out about about them because they organized the premier of Bjork's new video in 3D, which was insane. Here it is in 2D:


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Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:58 am
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
I've become very interested in 3D timelapse and 3D cinematography. If my next film is nature/timelapse related, I will almost certainly try to set it up as a 3D project. What do you guys think about adding a 3D forum or subforum here?

We could help to pioneer 3D timelapse, perhaps, even if only in some small way.


Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:08 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
My theory is that there are a lot more people on here that have done 3D than let on...It's totally within reach with our tech, just will require a bit more work to do right and well and get the workflow down. The results will be incredible. For now I think most people aren't showing their cards as it is somewhat of a holy grail and most people can only view them using a regular display with red/blue or eye crossing at the moment...and that being said I'd love a 3D forum...but I can't really say much more than I already have (the 3D stuff I've done involves some other folks).

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:24 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
I should also mention, that to get something up and working is just a matter of aligning two cameras in parallel (or converging them to focus on an object) and synchronizing shutters (which you can do by just modifying an off the shelf intervalometer).

Pretty much the exact same issues as general 3D cinematography...nothing really technically specific about time lapse other than the equipment to align/synchronize two DSLR's. You have the same post processing/workflow issues for general 3D stuff.

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:00 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
It's easy enough to capture, there are some tricks to the lens types, focal lengths, and spacing of the cameras.
I think we'll see it really take off on the non-studio level when there are more readily available commercial standards.
There is a blu-ray 3D standard now, but on the editing & authoring front, not much out there that is readily available (and affordable).

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:14 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
Does anyone know about doing 3D from one camera?

Apparently there is software that creates the 2nd 'virtual camera'?

If anyone knows of this I would be interested in a link.

As an aside...I feel kind of left out of all this 3D hype - I can only see out of one eye :(

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:23 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
Here's a rough test I did a couple of months ago. I wanted to see a nightlapse in 3D, so I borrowed a 2nd 5d2 from a friend, used a twin camera bar like this - http://www.3dstereo.com/viewmaster/sca-bar.html , with cameras mounted side by side and set both zoom lenses to 28mm. The exposures were long (20 s I think?), so I simply attached 2 intervalometers and manually set them running at the same time with the same parameters.



For those who haven't before...some tips for viewing cross-eyed stereo - http://members.shaw.ca/secondcello/Viewing.html

If others have done similar, I'd love to see them.

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Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:44 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
Colinmlegg: Nicely done. Exactly what I want to try. What did you use to turn the photos into stereo-video?

I need to find some sort of viewer. Hurts the eyes after awhile when crossing them.

There are some 3d point and shoot cameras coming out:
http://made-in-japan.tv/shop/products.p ... 10MP-3DW1-

I would like to see a forum or subforum on 3d.


Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:08 am
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
Quote:
There are some 3d point and shoot cameras coming out:
http://made-in-japan.tv/shop/products.p ... 10MP-3DW1-


I've shot with this camera a bunch, and it's quite a trip to play with. Apart from the 3D, it's just a crappy point & shoot, but the lenticular view screen that allows you to see the image in 3D w/o glasses or crossing your eyes is awesome. So fun to take pics and then show them to people. They usually freaked out. There's also a bigger (like 7x9") picture frame viewer that does the same thing.

The company that I was working for is pretty much the sole producer of Viewmaster reels now, since Mattel gave up. We just had our New York shots from this camera turned into film (!) by AlphaCine in Seattle for a test reel, and I'll be reshooting many of the National Parks of the west with this camera in the next year.

Shooting in 3D really makes you rethink your compositions. Much more like doing a short dolly does. It's all about foreground.

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Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:23 am
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
beavercreek wrote:
Colinmlegg: Nicely done. Exactly what I want to try. What did you use to turn the photos into stereo-video?

I need to find some sort of viewer. Hurts the eyes after awhile when crossing them.


If you use stereo photo maker http://stereo.jpn.org/eng/stphmkr/ you can automatically align the images and generate a red/blue or side by side image. It's quite easy to use and you can export the alignment data and import it into AE using some extra scripts (see the tutorial I linked above). The alignment import doesn't always work...I had to manually align a few test shots. Probably the easiest way to preview the stuff is with red/blue with some glasses, it will at least show you the 3dness of your scene.

AE is really nice for 3D. You can easily switch between different types of 3D views (red/blue vs. side by side vs. 2 separate streams) and render. You can also fake convergence (ie. the camera's angled towards each other the same way your eyes cross when focusing on a near object) for stuff that was captured without convergence.

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Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:26 am
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
I´m very interested in S3D (Stereo 3D), I´m have some LCD Shutter glass for computer (I don´t use it now because its for CRT, now I have a LCD and it´s not compatible with) and a TV 3D vision (wich use a similar way, only using the TV like monitor).

I tested it a few years ago, and is really a cool technology that in this year can expansionate because the coming of S3D devices fo PS3 and XBOX 360 and new televisions that can do it, and projectors ready fo S3D.

In digital stills, there is not notice from a dual lens configuration, only that point and click camera. The problem here is to make the proper distance for the cameras for the FOV. It´s a really difficult task, my friends!

In a virtual world (3DSMAX, MAYA, etc), it´s very easy render with S3D, but video and photograph is a bit more complicated.

I hope that something is moving in the S3D world, and we can see a lot of devices that can capture in S3D mode, using dual sensors, dual lens, whatever...

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Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:43 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
I do plan to get AE once I upgrade my computer. Anyone use anything else?


Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:00 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
beavercreek wrote:
Colinmlegg: Nicely done. Exactly what I want to try. What did you use to turn the photos into stereo-video?

Thanks.

I used AE to compile the clip, but not via the 'stereo' making options Delrious suggested. This is what I did -

1. Add both RAW images sequences to a new composition.
2. Allign the sequences by eye for cross-eyed presentation.
3. Add a virtual pan to both.
4. Add a shape layer to draw the border of the stereo window.

The finicky part was setting the stereo window correctly so no foreground element crossed it. Had to do this at the start and end of the pan.

I'll try the 'stereo' making options and see if that speeds up the process. I'm very much an AE noob.

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Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:52 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
Hi,

I've been doing quite a lot of stereoscopic timelapse work with P&S Canons (Ixus 80/A590/etc) loaded with free SDM "firmware". It syncs the cameras perfectly every time.

I've also worked as stereographer on some "big" shoots in Finland, usually using some kind of beamsplitter rig with various camera models synced with genlock. None of them are finished yet. I've also done quite a bit of stereo post-production on various shoots, and I also have a way to cut in 3D. I definitely recommend those stereo scripts for AE, they're not perfect but there is nothing better for AE right now.

The problem with DSLR sync is that there is no proof that how well they will sync. Some individuals have tested some models, but the data is still really thin. So only way to be sure is to buy a couple of cameras and test, which is of course a big risk ;) I would assume most recent models sync very well, since there is so little mechanics involved.

I'm trying to decide between EOS 1000D / EOS 500D / Nikon D5000 currently, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the 1000D and put more money into lenses (old manual M42 lenses that is).

The degree of sync depends on the subject matter, but usually we are talking about milliseconds.

I've been cutting my stereoscopic timelapse reel for a while, but I think I could upload some separate clips online. The problem with the reel is, of course, that it's not shot with DSLR's ;)

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Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:07 am
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
31 Jan 2010: Arsenal v Manchester United Premier League clash will be first 3D broadcast of live sports event to public audience, claims Sky TV.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/ja ... ted-3d-sky

I wish I could be in one of those pubs :)

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Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:41 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
I think a 3-D forum is a great idea. There are definitely enough different issues for subtopics. What version of AE did you guys use to assemble your stereo timelapse? I have CS4, do I need a newer version, or do I need to read the classroom book more? I've seen adapters for normal cameras that give you two side by side shots but you lose half the resolution. Most of the encoding schemes also lose half the resolution even if you shot with two cameras. As far as I know, Blu-Ray-3-D is the only one that actually preserves two full resolution images. It actually saves one good image and only the differences between that one and the other eye view. Its a good compression scheme since both images are so similar.

I agree that, although shooting with two cameras attached to a block of wood is a great way to start out, providing valuable real-world experience, some sort of DSLR mover is needed for propor convergence. Making the cameras parallel to each other is great for shots at infinity focus. As soon as you want to focus on anything nearby, you want to converge the two lenses so both cameras lines of sight converge on the subject. For most timelapse which does not involve focus racking, a simple trick is to attach laser pointers to each camera and converge the cameras until both lasers align at one point on the subject. Turn the lasers off before you start shooting. You would have to precisely align each laser with its respective camera. A trick for doing that is to aim both cameras on some distant object. Take extra care that the subject lines up with some feature on the viewfinder screen and align it with that same mark in both cameras. Now align the lasers and clamp them rigidly to each camera. Now that each laser is aligned with its respective camera in an identical angle, converging the two beams will also precision converge the two cameras as well.


As soon as you introduce something moving toward or away from the camera, or a dolly toward something, there will be a need for some serious moco. Not only do you need to focus the two lenses simultaneously, but you have to do the convergence of the two cameras simultaneously. No camera operator has enough hands or coordination to do all of that. Some sort of Arduino or PIC based mover is going to have to be made at some point. Thats going to be a pretty universally needed bit of kit. Anybody on here interested in becoming the makers of the mover?


Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:05 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
Hey all.
I know its not the 3d you are talking about but here is a test I did in anaglyphic using a borrowed g10 (to match my one) a rewired Intervalometer and AE.
http://www.layer1.co.nz/folio_work/stereotest.mov
sorry the colors are a bit off... I am still learning AE ( i used this guys set up http://www.vimeo.com/6094201 ) .


Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:50 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
Hi,

Most of this was shot with a dual 5D MK II rig on my own side-by-side rig:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPqe7610TT0

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Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:21 am
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
You don't need to moco the convergence, in fact you don't even need to use convergence at all. You can animate your convergence point easily in post, and avoid any keystoning which converging the cameras would introduce. Of course you will lose some resolution on the sides, but there is no free lunch... I usually don't convergence the cameras at all, but set my zero screen plane in post-production.

I would suggest the ability to dynamically vary the interaxial distance between the cameras would be way more important. And implemented pretty easily adapting one of the many timelapse dolly systems.

I'm building something that looks pretty identical to x-axis of a cnc-machine with two cameras on plates :)

Shooting landscapes in stereo is pretty easy gear-wise, but getting into closer shots is very hard since you'll need a beamsplitter. Or the new Panasonic lens with 10mm interaxial distance. I'll probably buy it for a interim solution before I'll get my beamsplitter done...

Here's my current side-by-side rig: http://stereoikkuna.fi/wp-content/uploa ... 010107.jpg

It's simple and it works (somewhat). I'm in the process of adding tilt adjustments for it, since correcting tilt imperfections in post is impossible... And most cameras are not flat, or the lenses aren't mounted perfectly straight in the mount, etc.

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Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:31 am
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
HAHA rikun, you think your rig is simple.
I made mine out of an off cut of wood. Woks ok tho. :lol:
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Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:15 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
how do you synchronise the shoots ?
Any special remote ?

would love tro try it. Allready made a lot of "virtual" 3D movies (3dsmax). But i miss a way to syncronize theses shoots ;)

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Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:23 am
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
Hey, I don't know about the others here but I just made a splitter cable.
My intervolomiter uses a mini headphone jack so I just bought 3 male plugs and wired up a new 1-2 one.
One of the cameras clicks a millisecond slower than the other but no one will ever spot that.
This photo was taken from a phone but it kind of shows it.
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Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:26 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
Seens obvious :)
Just need to find canon proprietary connectors ;)

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Mon Jan 17, 2011 1:42 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
Steven M. Bumgardner wrote:
Quote:
There are some 3d point and shoot cameras coming out:
http://made-in-japan.tv/shop/products.p ... 10MP-3DW1-


I've shot with this camera a bunch, and it's quite a trip to play with. Apart from the 3D, it's just a crappy point & shoot, but the lenticular view screen that allows you to see the image in 3D w/o glasses or crossing your eyes is awesome. So fun to take pics and then show them to people. They usually freaked out.


I had a chance to play around with this camera and see the back of 3D screen when I was with Steve in Yosemite last summer. It's very cool!


Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:10 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
There's also a new version of this camera out now, the W3, supposedly with less noise, 720p video and faster shooting speeds.

http://www.fujifilm.com/products/3d/cam ... _real3dw3/

Here's a good comparison: http://www.camera-catalog.com/compares/ ... real_3d_w1

BTW, the new Yosemite Viewmaster Reel will be coming out in a couple months, and it's using the photos that I took on this camera. I'll be getting a couple of cases for free, so it will be some cool schwag to give out to friends.

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Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:36 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
I love 3d :o
another forum on it would be cool.
Im sure we will all be doing it soon. Cant wait.
Just got my first 55inch LED LCD 3D tv last week.....coooooll ;)

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Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:15 am
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
I strongly support 3D as a format, for the appropriate films.

I saw TRON recently on IMAX 3D and I loved the 3D visuals and overall experience.

If anyone doubts IMAX 3D, go see HUBBLE 3D IMAX at a proper 70mm IMAX theater.

http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/imax/hubble3d


Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:10 am
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
Well...

Actually all my previous rigs have been made out of plywood ;) In fact they were more accurate than my current rig (for now). So don't overlook plywood ;)

I've delivered a lot of stereoscopic stock footage made with a plywood side-by-side rig, the only problem is the plywood sags, thus creating some rotation. Which is of course fixable in post, but quality goes slightly down.

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Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:17 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
Single 5D2 mounted on a Novaflex cross slide and MX2 dolly.

Red /Cyan anaglyph.


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Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:05 am
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
I just finished a 15 day all stereo, all time-lapse shoot using both 5DmkII and D700 pairs. We shot over 50 clips, and here is what I learned from the project (in no particular order)...

Note: We were shooting for the dome, so all rigs had Sigma 8mm circular fisheyes.

1) Interocular distance is very important, so the camera bodies need to keep the lenses as close to each other as possible (about 3" from lens center to lens center). All of our cameras were mounted base to base (in the dome we use the greatest square of each frame or a 1:1 ratio). This will not work in 4:3 or 16:9, but mounting one camera upsidedown next to the other gets close, and then it can be fixed to some degree in AE.
2) The lenses need to converge beyond infinity (in other words, they NEVER converge, this is so they never actually cross causing reverse stereo on distant objects).
3) Shots need lots of near field elements that dramatize the 3D effect, if the shot is a nature shot with objects mostly 50-100' away (or more) the stereo effect will be very weak or noneffective.
4) Working in 4K, focus on both rigs is critical, and we found most bodies focus slightly off from e/o... We did focus calibration and locked them on manual and set them with gaffe-tape once they were set.
5) We had a scene or two with failures on just one camera of a pair, and it is possible to time shift to artificially produce the second eye.
6) The stereo effect gets harder and harder to produce with wider angle lenses, as the distance cues rapidly fall off. With the 8mm lenses that meant some content had to be w/in a couple feet of the lens to keep the stereo alive.
7) The Nikons (shooting large JPG) were nice shooting at 3, 4, or 5 frames per second, a very different kind of time lapse.
8) We did lots of dolly work and it adds to the effect, but again, selection of near field components is important.
9) On all shots, camera clocks need to be set as close to e/o as possible. This helps for finding dropped frames in post. Also a clap board helps to set in and out sync points.

10) My favorite annoyance... Calling it 3D... It is stereo capture of a 3D environment. Arrggghhh!

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Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:30 pm
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
BerthaDUniverse wrote:
9) On all shots, camera clocks need to be set as close to e/o as possible. This helps for finding dropped frames in post. Also a clap board helps to set in and out sync points.

All good tips, thanks. Re. dropping frames, what do you think caused this? Too small a gap between interval and exposure? Canon or Nikon?

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Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:21 am
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Post Re: 3d timelapse
colinmlegg wrote:
BerthaDUniverse wrote:
9) On all shots, camera clocks need to be set as close to e/o as possible. This helps for finding dropped frames in post. Also a clap board helps to set in and out sync points.

All good tips, thanks. Re. dropping frames, what do you think caused this? Too small a gap between interval and exposure? Canon or Nikon?

I don't think it's a Canon vs. Nikon thing, it's a body vs. body thing. Some bodies, from both manufacturers, write ridiculously fast, some are pathetically slow. Some memory cards are also quite slow (compared to something like the 60MB/sec Extreme & 90MB/sec Extreme Pro cards) and mean your camera can't write out the images as fast as it might otherwise be able to.

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Post Re: 3d timelapse
Kaouthia might have a point about buffer speeds, and there is also the simple fact that there are all sorts of electronics and plugs and connectors involved, most of which, at least in my case, is off the shelf stuff, so it's not NASA. Anyway in an overnight shoot, a dropped frame or two can really mess with the stereo, especially in a dolly shot. I use an after market tool to sync my canons, but I have not found/used one for Nikon. If the times are not fairly close (.01-.001 of a sec), you can spend an hour hunting down where the frame is missing.


colinmlegg wrote:
BerthaDUniverse wrote:
9) On all shots, camera clocks need to be set as close to e/o as possible. This helps for finding dropped frames in post. Also a clap board helps to set in and out sync points.

All good tips, thanks. Re. dropping frames, what do you think caused this? Too small a gap between interval and exposure? Canon or Nikon?

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Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:33 pm
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:44 pm
Posts: 67
Location: Sydney, Australia
Post Re: 3d timelapse
there are some dual lenses available, such as:
http://www.mobilemag.com/2010/07/30/pan ... sion-lens/
http://www.gizmag.com/lensinacap-sideby ... ent/15674/
I dont know how well these work, but they are a start.


Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:17 am
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