It is currently Mon Dec 09, 2019 6:32 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ] 
 Questions on Workflow 
Author Message

Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:16 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Fullerton, CA
Post Questions on Workflow
OK, I have been researching some of the workflow threads and I guess I am missing some steps. I am trying to tailor my workflow after some that have more experience than me. Well, pretty much everyone on here has more than me. :lol:
Although it has been panned somewhat , I downloaded a trial version of Premier Elements 9 and per a recommendation, i also downloaded copy of Virtual dub to see which would software work better for me. Currently, free will work better until I find a new job. But, the full featured programs like AE and AP are not even in the picture due to their cost. I have played with Quicktime Pro and have had it choke on me on longer sequences.
I have quite a few sequences captured mostly at medium JPEG quality at 2544W x 1696H pixels per frame (Canon 20D 8.2MP sensor size). These range from less than 100 frames to well over 2K frames and more.
Regarding workflow, I see examples of after capture, put into processing SW to assemble the movie and then in some cases, post in a Photoshop like program for image looks like saturation, contrast and so on. To me this seems backwards. One example is the thread titled 'Our Workflow'. Also, so far, I have only seen one recommendation to re-size the captures prior to movie processing.

As I see it, a good workflow would be:
Capture sequences
Resize images to a 720pixel height in a SW program that can be automated to do the full sequence. I have Lightroom 3.3 and am trying to learn how to automate things.
Process/create a movie via a program like PE9, VIrtual Dub, AE, Premier...
Then do whatever else is needed to get the movie ready to view in YouTube/Vimeo

In my case, I have made the captures
Will process the images in Lightroom 3.3 - resizing, color, contrast and so on
Import into Premier Elements9 or Virtual Dub to create a movie
Also, Add music as needed later as I get more proficient- no silent movies later
FInish processing for YouTube or Vimeo.

Does this workflow make sense? If not I will take any recommendations.
Also, Can I import a sequence of images into Virtual Dub? In my initial looking around, I only found importing of previously made movie sequences like a .avi sequence.

Thanks for any help and advice.

Mike


Thu Apr 21, 2011 5:45 pm
Profile

Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:12 pm
Posts: 196
Location: Amelia Island, Florida
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
Yes, you can put stills into Virtual Dub.

File
Open Video File


Then just select the first still in your sequence, it will suck in the whole numbered sequence of stills.

In Virtual Dub you can also resize the pictures, using the resize filter.

Video
Filters
ADD


and then select the resize filter, plug in your 1280 x 720 numbers, and your resulting AVI will be that size.

It also has brighten/contrast and sharpen filters, and a bunch of other ones.

So you can eliminate your initial resize step. I don't have a lot of experience, but here's how I make my budget movies....

1. Import the stills into VD, use the "resize" filter and maybe the "pan" filter, and then export to an AVI file.
2. Take my AVI clips and stick them into Adobe Premier Elements (not because I like it, but because it's the only software I have).
3. Add the transitions, shorten clips if necessary, add titles and music, and export to a 1280 x 720 WMV file to upload to Youtube. Not because WMV is super resolution, but because the file size is manageable for upload and it looks OK on Youtube.

I have no clue how to fix color or saturation on 300 images, so I try and manage that end of the project in the camera.

I had a lot of problems with Elements until I started doing it that way. I was trying to put full sized pictures from the camera into Elements and it would crash every 10 minutes or lock up. Since I started using the reduced size AVI files, haven't had that problem at all.

Hope that helps.


Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:15 pm
Profile

Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:16 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Fullerton, CA
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
Wow, that sure helps a lot! That would simplify the workflow quite a bit with only two programs to learn instead of 3(LR for the initial pp).
I'm going to look around for more VDub info but thank you for the instructions.
Now, as for linking a vid in this forum, is there a instruction thread on that somewhere?


Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:34 pm
Profile

Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:12 pm
Posts: 196
Location: Amelia Island, Florida
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
I've never seen one. Click the "youtube" square at the top of the edit window,
that will drop a couple of Youtube tags into your message:

[youtube][/youtube]

Then you paste the full URL in between the tabs at the cursor position. Don't
forget the "WWW" or the video won't embed. Finished it looks like this:
Code:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDYh_Xh2qZw[/youtube]


Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:12 pm
Profile

Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:16 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Fullerton, CA
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
Thanks Jim. When I get something finished, I will be sure to post it. And I appreciate all the other help too.

Mike

Jim wrote:
I've never seen one. Click the "youtube" square at the top of the edit window,
that will drop a couple of Youtube tags into your message:

[youtube][/youtube]

Then you paste the full URL in between the tabs at the cursor position. Don't
forget the "WWW" or the video won't imbed. Finished it looks like this:
Code:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDYh_Xh2qZw[/youtube]


Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:39 am
Profile

Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:16 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Fullerton, CA
Post Re: Questions on Workflow - update
Woohoo, I finally got started with something in Virtual Dub.
Here is what I started with.
192 Medium JPEG images at 2544 x 1966 and about 2Mb each in size.
Each shot was at 1/25 second at f14 and one frame per second with a 2 stop ND filter.
Since I took this sequence, I have gotten additional ND filters that block more light so some of my most recent sequences are at lower f stops to minimize any flicker.

I processed it in Virtual dub and resizing to 1080 x 720 and correcting orientation. Just basic filters for now. I have no clue on some of the others and what they do.
I think it took about 35 seconds to process and export a .avi movie that is now 427Mb.

For the VDub folks out there does that seem about right for the output size? Seems kind of large to me but this is my first try at processing something like this.
Is there a filter that would reduce the end product size or do I just need to resize to a 480x720 size.
I have MUCH longer sequences (1000-2000+ images) and I think those would be huge if I keep it at 720.

Also, are there any other filters in VDub that people normally use and what do they do?

Also,also, regarding the audio section of VDub is that the provisions in which to add music to the video or do I need to do that in something like Premier Elements?

Any additional hints would be greatly appreciated.
So far the output looks pretty good but I am curious as to the output size before I try to put it up on UTube or Vimeo for all to see.


Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:11 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:54 pm
Posts: 888
Location: Aars, Denmark
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
Sounds like you need to download and install a good compression codec, like x264. Once installed you'll find it in the list of codecs available when you hit Ctrl+p. That will work wonders for your filesizes without sacrificing quality too much. ;-)

Here's a thread that may have a couple of useful hints in it:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=716

And as for filters there are a lot. The most commonly used are MSU or Graft Deflicker, Deshaker and filters for zoom/pan and fading in/out, but much more is available. Here's a list of filters:
http://www.infognition.com/VirtualDubFi ... ailed.html
What remains quite cumbersome with VirtualDub is adding overlays like text and working with music (you can simply add a track though via Audio -> Audio from other file...).

_________________
Nikon D3s, D600, Canon 5D II, S3, SX100.
Feature film Beneath the Aurora on Vimeo.


Thu Apr 28, 2011 5:41 pm
Profile

Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:12 pm
Posts: 196
Location: Amelia Island, Florida
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
Never tried audio until just now... Click "Audio" then "Audio From Other File" and show it where your music is. Looks like it just chops it off when the video is done, so I'm not sure there's an option to fade the audio at the end or the beginning, but I'll play with and let you know if I find one.

Yep, the AVI files are pretty big, I think that's because they are "uncompressed". I have a few pushing 1 GB. Way too big to upload to Youtube. The AVI files are so big, I can't watch them in real time on my computer; herky jerky in Windows Media Player.

I use a video converter program:

http://www.any-video-converter.com/products/for_video_free/

to convert them to WMV format. (Software is free). Select the "Custom WMV format" for the output, set the video size to 1280x720 and click the convert icon. The resulting WMV file will be MUCH smaller than the VD AVI file. I fooled around with Youtube for a week trying to figure out what format up gave the best viewing results on Youtube, and believe it or not, it was WMV.....


Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:03 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:54 pm
Posts: 888
Location: Aars, Denmark
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
Jim,

I think you could also benefit from using a good codec like x264 directly from VirtualDub. I have never tried what you are doing, so don't know how much improvement it would bring in quality vs. filesize (x264 is supposedly the best of the crop currently), but doing the compression directly in Virtualdub would cut down on both processing time and the time it takes you to handle it. x264 will export in the AVI format by the way and works fine with YouTube etc.

_________________
Nikon D3s, D600, Canon 5D II, S3, SX100.
Feature film Beneath the Aurora on Vimeo.


Thu Apr 28, 2011 6:51 pm
Profile

Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:16 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Fullerton, CA
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
flyvholm, I took a look at that other VD thread link and the codec links and on the x264 one, it is a .tar.bz2.
Is that a zipped file of some sort or is it uncompressed? Also, in the case of the codecs, where am I putting them in the VD program?
I also downloaded a x264.exe file and a Xvid.exe codec files. Do I just execute those to install them or do I put them somewhere in the VD program.
I only see one folder that makes sense on where to put these additional codecs and deflicker files and that is in the plug-ins folder. Is this correct?

Sorry for all the questions. Just trying to learn. And am still reading threads on post processing.

Thanks for all the help from everyone. I am starting to like this forum more and more.
Mike


Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:23 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:54 pm
Posts: 888
Location: Aars, Denmark
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
Run the x264.exe file (the tar.bz file is source code for compiling/installing the codec on other operating systems). The installation should be quick and easy and will install the codec for general use, not just for VirtualDub. But VirtualDub will know where to find it and pick it up as soon as it is installed. Same goes for Xvid. Installing ffdshow too (available on the x264 download site) for decoding is probably a good idea.

The plug-ins folder under VirtualDub is where you put any of the filters (deflickers etc., files with .vdf extension) you may download from the site I linked to above.

_________________
Nikon D3s, D600, Canon 5D II, S3, SX100.
Feature film Beneath the Aurora on Vimeo.


Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:33 pm
Profile

Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:16 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Fullerton, CA
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
Cool, thanks. I figured out the plug ins part and they showed up after copying them into the folder.
Tried the .exe files and only one seemed to install. The Xvid went through a installation process.
The x264.exe from free codecs didn't do much of anything. double clicking the .exe popped up a small window for less than a second (appeared to have a black background) and then nothing.
Upon opening VD and looking in the compression tab, I do see the Xvid as a selection but no x264.
AnyIdeas on that one.

In the mean time I will play with the xvid compression and see what I get.


Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:05 pm
Profile

Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:12 pm
Posts: 196
Location: Amelia Island, Florida
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
flyvholm wrote:
Jim,

I think you could also benefit from using a good codec like x264 directly from VirtualDub.

Thanks, I'll give that a try.


Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:17 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:54 pm
Posts: 888
Location: Aars, Denmark
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
Who me? wrote:
The x264.exe from free codecs didn't do much of anything. double clicking the .exe popped up a small window for less than a second (appeared to have a black background) and then nothing.

The installation probably ran into an error, displaying an error message in the window that closed faster than you could blink an eye. You can find out what the error message is by running the x264.exe file from a command prompt (which is what that window was, Start -> All Programs -> Accessories -> Command Prompt). In the command prompt navigate to the folder where the x264.exe is located with "cd <folder name>" commands, or maybe easier, put the x264.exe in the folder that the command prompt starts in. Then just type x264.exe and it will try to install, probably failing and showing an error message - but now the window won't close on you.

Xvid should serve you just fine too. x264 may be a little better, but if you are not a pixel peeper I am not sure whether you'd notice any difference in practice.

_________________
Nikon D3s, D600, Canon 5D II, S3, SX100.
Feature film Beneath the Aurora on Vimeo.


Sun May 01, 2011 11:51 pm
Profile

Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:12 pm
Posts: 196
Location: Amelia Island, Florida
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
I'm having the same problem. Apparently the x264.exe file from x264.nl isn't a codec that will install in Windows, it looks like it's a video converter program that will convert something to x264 format:

C:\>x264
x264 [error]: No input file. Run x264 --help for a list of options.

C:\>x264 --help
x264 core:114 r1913 5fd3dce
Syntax: x264 [options] -o outfile infile

Infile can be raw (in which case resolution is required),
or YUV4MPEG (*.y4m),
or Avisynth if compiled with support (yes).
or libav* formats if compiled with lavf support (yes) or ffms support (yes).
Outfile type is selected by filename:
.264 -> Raw bytestream
.mkv -> Matroska
.flv -> Flash Video
.mp4 -> MP4 if compiled with GPAC support (yes)
Output bit depth: 8 (configured at compile time)


Mon May 02, 2011 9:41 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:54 pm
Posts: 888
Location: Aars, Denmark
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
Whoops, I'm sorry. It's been a while since I installed x264 myself and I had forgotten that it wasn't that straightforward. I guess the x264 development team must have some sort of issue with the vfw (video for windows) version of the codec since their site only links to the command line version - kinda annoying when that's not what we want. ;-) Download the vfw version from here:

http://x264vfw.sourceforge.net/

(I fixed the link in my post above to point to this.)

_________________
Nikon D3s, D600, Canon 5D II, S3, SX100.
Feature film Beneath the Aurora on Vimeo.


Mon May 02, 2011 8:44 pm
Profile

Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:12 pm
Posts: 196
Location: Amelia Island, Florida
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
Thanks, that one worked. It even told me to check the Virtual Dub Hack option box the first time I ran it.

Ten second clip uncompressed is an 812 mb file, and the same clip with X264 is a 1.4 mb file. I can't tell any difference in the quality watching it in HD in Windows Media Player or RealPlayer. QuickTime doesn't like it, but I don't like QuickTime so we're even ;)

That should make a big difference in how fast I can choke Adobe Premiere Elements with AVI clips.


Mon May 02, 2011 11:38 pm
Profile

Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:16 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Fullerton, CA
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
I just saw this, downloaded the .exe file and started playing with this. I received 3 errors initially but it processed.
The output window showed the following:
Few Frames probably would be lost, Ways to fix this
If you use VirtualDub or its fork, you can enable 'VirtualDub Hack' option
You can enable 'File' output mode
You can enable 'Zero Latency' option


I think that was why playback was jerky and seemed to be at a different frame rate. I have to go back and see what tweaking the settings will do based on the error window.
But it worked and the file was a little smaller than the Xvid output based on default settings.
My start is a 3.78 GB (1178 frame) sequence reduced to 83.9Mb with Xvid and 44.4Mb with the x264. The final output sequence was 48 seconds long at 24fps.
The Xvid output in Win Media player was smooth and played well, the X264 output had a delayed start, was jerky and not near as smooth. So I guess I have some playing to do with both compression codecs.


Tue May 03, 2011 10:19 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:38 pm
Posts: 585
Location: Exmouth, Western Australia
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
Just come accross this thread and wanted to add a couple of points that might help:

You can adjust colour and contrast to the whole sequence in Premiere Elements. Right click on the sequence and select 'properties'. You then get several options for adjusting the images (brithness, contrast, hue, saturation) and some motion controls for panning, zooming etc.

Elements has trouble with large still pictures but is an excelent video editing package once you have the data in AVI format.

If you get into using keyframes it is possible to have the adjustments change over time to compensate for white balance changes or brighness to a limited extent.

This is also a good time to add music, narration etc. Elements is a bit rudimentary in it's audio mixing but is good enough for most 'amateur' level work.

An excelent web site and forum for learning about Elements is at muvipix.com

Kit


Fri May 06, 2011 5:48 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 5:36 am
Posts: 270
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
I downloaded a copy of Virtual Dub version 1.3c (build 10740.) Ive got a folder full of JPGs which Ive tried opening with VD but without success. After selecting the 'All files' option, I click on the first photo file in the group and I get this message: 'Cannot determine file type of "E: / Photos / Sealink Time Lapse / P1010868.JPG".' Which is crazy because JPGs would have to be one of the most common, universal photo file types in existance. Though is a JPG really the same thing as a JPEG? By the way, does VD accept TIFF files?

Edit: Ah...the reason why it's having compatibility issues is because it's an old version. I just downloaded the latest version and accepts my files with no problem.


Wed Jan 02, 2013 6:50 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 5:36 am
Posts: 270
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
Does anyone know of a safe, reliable website where I can download Xvid from? So far, Ive tried downloading this codec from two sites, including Cnet. In both instances, this laptop gives me a message saying that this file is unsafe. And the only option given to me is to delete the file.


Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:12 pm
Profile

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:53 am
Posts: 48
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
tribal-warrior wrote:
Does anyone know of a safe, reliable website where I can download Xvid from? So far, Ive tried downloading this codec from two sites, including Cnet. In both instances, this laptop gives me a message saying that this file is unsafe. And the only option given to me is to delete the file.


Why do you want Xvid?

If you use Free MPEG Stream Clip (http://www.squared5.com/) you can convert your files to H.264


Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:28 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 5:36 am
Posts: 270
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
paulemous wrote:
Why do you want Xvid?


Ive heard people say very good things about Xvid - reducing file size while maintaining quality. Additionally, I have seen examples of 720p Xvid AVIs on youtube and the quality looked really nice.

So far, I also like the look of the AVIs that Virtual Dub produces, playing them back on VLC. So it would be my preference to use a codec (like Xvid) within Virtual Dub.

Recently, I tried bringing one of my VDub-created clips into another freeware software called Any Video Converter to convert it to a 1280 x 720 WMV. I was not impressed with the results. Motion wasn't as smooth as the original file and there was a slight stall every few seconds.

paulemous wrote:
If you use Free MPEG Stream Clip (http://www.squared5.com/) you can convert your files to H.264


If you can convince me that the MPEG Stream Clip and H.264 combination will give me just as good results (or better) than Virtual Dub with Xvid, then I'll give it a go.


Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:54 am
Profile

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:53 am
Posts: 48
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
tribal-warrior wrote:
If you can convince me that the MPEG Stream Clip and H.264 combination will give me just as good results (or better) than Virtual Dub with Xvid, then I'll give it a go.


Xvid is H.263 so what is better? H.263 or H.264 ;)

H.264 is currently - by far - best way to encode video -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC. The MPEG Stream clip works good but if you really want to get impressive quality yet smaller file sizes you might want to consider Compressor (part of FCS3).

tribal-warrior wrote:
Recently, I tried bringing one of my VDub-created clips into another freeware software called Any Video Converter to convert it to a 1280 x 720 WMV. I was not impressed with the results. Motion wasn't as smooth as the original file and there was a slight stall every few seconds.

Don't use WMV. It sucks.

The .mov container can work with H.264 and you don't want to use anything else... :geek:


Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:18 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 5:36 am
Posts: 270
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
Is the H.264 codec already an integral part of MPEG Stream Clip? In other words, you don't need to install it? And when using the software, do you have to actively select H.264 in order to use it?


Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:31 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 5:36 am
Posts: 270
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
By the way, what's a good file size (not too big, not too small) for uploading a 720p video to youtube and / or vimeo?


Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:06 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:52 am
Posts: 1
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
tribal-warrior wrote:
By the way, what's a good file size (not too big, not too small) for uploading a 720p video to youtube and / or vimeo?


YouTube reads flv flash video file and mp4 file well.
If you are looking for a tool to handle file conversion for uploading to YouTube, AppGeeker would give your a hand.
Slightly complicated process, works marvelously. It is what i always use. Check
How to convert XviD AVI to MP4 on Mac and Windows
It Converts everything into everything. Customizable file size or quality, features to add chapters and subs, user friendly GUI, easy to handle while offering lots of options to the advanced user.
Try it and tell me how it goes.

-James

_________________
"If it doesn't fit in the hole, maybe you shouldn't beat it with a hammer."


Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:04 am
Profile

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:48 pm
Posts: 4
Post Re: Questions on Workflow
I am perplexed and would love some advice please!

Is there a box to check in the config of H264 or Virtual Dub to prevent the following?

I shifted away from Movie Maker (due to horrid banding in the sky) over to VirtualDub and H264. When using H264 my time lapses stall yet the blue progress bar keeps going, then it jumps forward and stalls again. Always at the same place.

My twilight skies have banding throughout, similar to an image with low bit depth - the original jpgs are clean as can be. This happens even with VirtualDub running with no compression (2.5G for 1m25s!), but it sure has the feel of compression.

All the images were first re-sized to 1080x720 so VD would not be compressing that as well. And those 1080x720 have no banding in them.

YouTube makes it even worse. Should I move to vimeo?

Thanks,
Al.


Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:55 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forums/DivisionCore. pozycjonowanie