It is currently Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:53 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 
 Apple Shake 
Author Message
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 85
Post Apple Shake
As a hardcore Shake fan, I was just wondering if some other people around here also use it...

If some of you are curious about it, I'd be glad to explain why it is far better than AE or similar.

D.


Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:07 am
Profile

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:07 am
Posts: 69
Post Re: Apple Shake
Hi Dave,

I have shake 4.0 and have used it in my work for tracking titles and a few other bits and bobs but I'm only a beginner. It seems vast in its depth, so a bit intimidating to someone who is self teaching. What do you think?


Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:33 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 85
Post Re: Apple Shake
billtekker wrote:
Hi Dave,

I have shake 4.0 and have used it in my work for tracking titles and a few other bits and bobs but I'm only a beginner. It seems vast in its depth, so a bit intimidating to someone who is self teaching. What do you think?


It is intimidating, but this is only a feeling. And what you need to master is only small part of Shake features.
The main nodes you should know are transform ones : window, resize, and move2D for panning + move3D for zooming if you need to pan&zoom into your frame.
Next, some color ones may also be helpful, the biggest node being colorcorrect, that can do pretty anything at once.

The good thing is that you have a nice pdf documentation, and a link for each node to html help, fully describing the use of the node...

If you wanna have a try, I'll be glad to help.

D.


Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:17 am
Profile

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:07 am
Posts: 69
Post Re: Apple Shake
Sorry for the late response Dave. Do you know if Shake has a plug-in, like the GBdeflicker one for AE? Can't find any applications on the mac which do it unfortunately.


Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:39 pm
Profile

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 251
Post Re: Apple Shake
Hi Dave,
Shake is cheap for sure. I like the idea of using it...but AE has worked well for me (stabilization using Mocha for AE, Color Correction using Synthetic Aperature or some 32bit adjustment fx, AE Cloning (to take out bugs and birds), and the use of masks and layers to adjust exposure for pixel accurate areas.
I read that a lot of places are replacing shake for Nuke. Yes, Nuke is expensive but why are they aborting Shake? Perhaps because Apple is? I don't know but I am interested in your comments about it's superior qualities...AE is 32 bit though so I'm wondering if Shake is 64bit.
Thanks in Advance
cd


Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:10 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 85
Post Re: Apple Shake
Bill, can you tell me what's exactly GBdeflicker ?
Heard about it many times, but still can't be sure of what it really does...

Thx


Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:28 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 85
Post Re: Apple Shake
fwdinc,

I'm not trying to say that AE sucks, because I've been using it for 15 years or so (since 3.0 version), and I know it runs damn well, and you'll always find a solution to your needs with it.

That said, when you come to higher finesse in your visual works, you realize that AE has a real hard built-in workflow that you have to deal with on a daily basis, and it can lead you to overcomplicate your setup, for a trivial reason. And that's bad.
For example, take a hires sequence, that you scale down x2 in smaller comp. You apply a color correction on the layer. Then you're gonna render a color correction on 4x too big image, just because AE apply filter first, then scales down. Of course, you can apply an adjustment layer above, and apply color correct to it, and then you're fine, but how many of us really get into this ?
Shake, with its node based interface, clearly asks you choose in which order you wanna sequence operations.
I remember first time I tried that beast. I was lost. But once you get the node way of working, you are so amazed of what you can do, and how you can conceptualize your way of doing things, that AE looks like an old Underwood compared to a computer text editor...

Another great feature in Shake is concatenation. When you apply several filters of same type (transform ones or color ones), Shake makes only one resulting calculation, instead of stacking many operations. Result is far more clean & precise, as way less roundings have been made.

Filtering is also way better. You can choose among 10 different filters when scaling, and result is way better. Just try it, you'll see.

64 bit depth, as for now, are useless, as 32bit are supposed to be floating point, therefore values are never rounded.
So no Shake doesn't do it ;)

About Nuke replacing Shake, I've also heard such things.
The reason is that Shake is dead, until further annoucement. Apple said 2 years ago that Shake development was stopped. Nothing since...
So Shake won't support new file format, and slowly become obsolete...unless something happens, nobody knows.


Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:56 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:48 pm
Posts: 1144
Post Re: Apple Shake
AE 3.0 came out 13 years ago (October 1995) - I started using CoSA AE 2.0 (actually the it was still an Aldus product) in may of 1995.

As you stated the difference between AE and Shake (and for that matter flame/inferno/etc) is that AE is not a node based compositor and Shake is. The work flow is different. There are several ways to change the render order of effects in relation to scale (you can precomp the element, use adjustment layers, also using the transform effect to scale the element before the CC effect instead of using the native scaling) I have never used Shake but I have tried flame and couldn't wrap my mind around the whole node based workflow

Quote:
Another great feature in Shake is concatenation. When you apply several filters of same type (transform ones or color ones), Shake makes only one resulting calculation, instead of stacking many operations. Result is far more clean & precise, as way less roundings have been made.


you can do this in AE with collapsed rasterization button on a precomp

Quote:
Filtering is also way better. You can choose among 10 different filters when scaling, and result is way better. Just try it, you'll see.


Of course I'd love to see a variety of different filters in AE but I have yet to see an apples to apples comparison between the both - I haven't seen enough of a difference. I'd love to see a side by side comparison if you have one.

I know of people using AE to create IMAX elements (and I know they've been doing that since AE 3.0) of course all that said I much prefer to use AE for motion graphics where AE totally kicks butt - and I really do a minimum of effects work - mostly my time lapse (color correction, scaling/rotation/repositioning, painting out flaws, some stabilizing and a little rotoscoping)

timt

_________________
Please check out how to embed a Vimeo link.
Tim T


Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:53 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 85
Post Re: Apple Shake
hey bot,

you're right about node base workflow : it requires a hard time adapting your way of thinking, and I perfectly remember my first steps into it : completely lost for a moment....
I'm not trying to prove anything about Shake being superior than AE, but I do think it is more suited to timelapse process, as working with very hires can cause AE to freak out from time to time.
Also, I know we can always find a way to break AE inner workflow, by precomping or using adjustment layers, but don't tell me you wouldn't be happy not to do it...
If you don't own enough available memory, Shake will split image into smaller parts, until available RAM will do it. So you can't really overload Shake, even with insanely big files.
And when rendering, Shake will use all available cpus, a thing AE still doesn't master : try the muti render function, you'll see what I mean.

About concatenation, you're also right about collapsing comps as layers, but still, it's only true for transform operations, not applied filters. Several consecutive color filters will be calculated one by one by AE, result of the first filter becoming source for the second one, etc...

The Shake UI is also quite superior, with built-in compare tool between A/B buffer (that you can manually mimic in AE, that's right), pixel analyzer, that can accumulate values over time, so you're sure to find the highest/lowest values in your whole sequence...
Color nodes are also way better than AE built-in tools. ColorCorrect node for ex, is just incredibly powerful, as it's built as a full master/lo/med/hilights, with controls on each tab for offset, gain, gamma, contrast (with adjustable center), etc...You can switch at any time to different colorspaces, like TMV (Temperature, Magenta, Value), which has no equivalent afaik, to correct that easily white balance. Color picker is also more complete, as for a single pick, you have minimum, maximum and average values available at same time...

If you want a comparison test between AE & Shake resizing, I'll do it when possible, so you can judge on a visual result.

But most important is to be at ease with your tools, so I can understand that some may prefer AE because they're in a well known environment. We love what we know, and know what we love ;)


Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:10 am
Profile

Joined: Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:07 am
Posts: 69
Post Re: Apple Shake
Dave- GBDeflicker is a plug-in for after effetcs which is supposed to help eliminate flicker, ie- difference in exposure between frames. I've never used it myself so can't vouvh for it's effectiveness.


Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:17 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 85
Post Re: Apple Shake
billtekker wrote:
GBDeflicker is a plug-in for after effetcs which is supposed to help eliminate flicker, ie- difference in exposure between frames.


All right. I've found gbtimelapse website, and just watching the demo video...
So, it behaves like AE built-in color stabilizer, with obviously more options...looks nice.
Bad news : it's only available to wintel machines...

Anyway, Shake has a powerful pixel analyzer, that can track any zone over time. Then you can use analysis to stabilize either brightness, or whatever parameter you wish to use, to fix exposure modulation.
It may not be as straight forward as GBdeflicker, but it really works well.


Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:52 am
Profile

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 251
Post Re: Apple Shake
Dave,
You got me interested in Shake now...it's really cheap but the curve is not.
How is your Nuke curve going? I have the personal evaluation version from the Foundry's web site but haven't touched it yet. Scary.

If I have the money (3500 pounds)...what would you suggest to get? Nuke or Shake?
Some may say that this is overkill for timelapse but HD will be the low end soon enough and I want to future proof my acquisitions.
...I think with Red's introduction of DSMC the acquisition quality will need a highend solution anyway.

I am very comfy with AE CS3 and use it for timelapse mostly now. Like this...
Canon 30D Raw compatibility - with pre comp color/exposure/temperature adjustments
Stabilization via Mocha AE
Color correction - Grading via 32bit plugs or Synthetic Aperture
Layer Masks to adjust exposure to enhance portions of the comp
Some position and sizing moves via keyframing
Cloning over hundreds of stills - sometimes multiple cloning layers (birds, sensor dust (less now since I clean with "visible dust" more regularly.
Blur over comp - to unnoticeably blur faces or ads in comp for stock usage.
Some effects like time echo.

So, what I'm asking - can Shake handle these tasks? and is it easier to learn Nuke from the ground up?
BTW, fxPHD has online courses for Nuke. http://www.fxphd.com/index.php

Thanks Dave for sharing your insights.
Cheers
cd


Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:22 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:48 pm
Posts: 1144
Post Re: Apple Shake
Quote:
If you want a comparison test between AE & Shake resizing, I'll do it when possible, so you can judge on a visual result.


That would be cool it would be nice to also have a photoshop scale downed version - I've tried the photoshop vs AE and while I could see a difference if I looked at with the difference transfer mode - it wasn't enough of a difference to say that AE was terrible (I know you didn't say that).

Glad Shake is working for you - I have always thought node based systems were better for effects etc.., and as far as color correcting goes have you used apple's "color"? - or is the shake CC tools more robust than "Color" already? As far as deflickering goes have you looked at genarts' sapphire plug-ins the have one of the best plug-ins for deflicker removal and it now works with shake - you can download a demo to give it a try.

timt

_________________
Please check out how to embed a Vimeo link.
Tim T


Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:41 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 85
Post Re: Apple Shake
Quote:
How is your Nuke curve going? I have the personal evaluation version from the Foundry's web site but haven't touched it yet. Scary.


I'm in same case. I also have an evaluation copy, but at the time I tried to open it, the UI made me close it immediatly. I know I shouldn't do that, but it was definitely not very...friendly UI.
From this point of view, Shake looks to me way more friendly, but again, this is only feeling I get...

Quote:
If I have the money (3500 pounds)...what would you suggest to get? Nuke or Shake?


On a price consideration, Shake looks more appealing, that seems obvious...
The question then is do you really need latest complicated file formats, like the ones supporting 32bit/channel plus Z channel, plus 3D coordinates,etc...?
For TL purpose, I guess answer is no. Even is Shake is dead from a development point of view, it stills rocks and is quite complete, for the price of a plugin bundle...

Quote:
Some may say that this is overkill for timelapse but HD will be the low end soon enough and I want to future proof my acquisitions.
...I think with Red's introduction of DSMC the acquisition quality will need a highend solution anyway.


I think compositing and color rules are quite mature, and ways of doing things won't change that much in a near future. So Shake still can be seen as a rock solid visual tool, and will probably be used for many years.

Quote:
I am very comfy with AE CS3 and use it for timelapse mostly now. Like this...
Canon 30D Raw compatibility - with pre comp color/exposure/temperature adjustments
Stabilization via Mocha AE
Color correction - Grading via 32bit plugs or Synthetic Aperture
Layer Masks to adjust exposure to enhance portions of the comp
Some position and sizing moves via keyframing
Cloning over hundreds of stills - sometimes multiple cloning layers (birds, sensor dust (less now since I clean with "visible dust" more regularly.
Blur over comp - to unnoticeably blur faces or ads in comp for stock usage.
Some effects like time echo.

So, what I'm asking - can Shake handle these tasks? and is it easier to learn Nuke from the ground up?


I can't tell about Nuke because I have no exprience with it, only heard about.
But what I know from Shake is that online documentation is incredibly complete, tutorials are also provided, and excellent books are also available in the Apple Pro Series (one is named Shake 4, another one is Encyclopedia of visual effects).
Also, being a node based compositor, you have access, from every single node, to an online html help page, fully describing the node, giving infos on what it does and how to use it.
So if you're in a learning mood, it's quite easy to get into it...

About tasks you need to perform :

RAW support : I guess there is no raw support. Workaround is to transform raw files to any linear 16bit file format before going into Shake.
Stabilize : Shake has a full featured stab/track, that is rock solid.
Color correction : Since I've been grading with Shake, any other tool just looks like kid toy. Synthetic aperture, Color, whatever you can try : none of them can even come close to Shake capabilities.
I didn't get the layer masks idea. What are you doing with layer masks ? Anyway, you have even greater mask support in Shake than AE. And reshaping a mask by its points is just terrific in Shake, as vertices are automatically adjusted as you move your point. Very nice, really.
Also, you can group masks together with parent/child linking.
Move3D node will do whatever pan or zoom you may need. Note that on fast moves (maybe not suitable to TL), Shake provides a motion blur that you've just never seen before.
The cloning tool in Shake is also full featured, so you can clone/reveal either on the whole sequence, or frame only. Strokes can be animated over time if you need to.
Blur filter (with many different blur methods) can also be applied to part of an image. In AE, you'll need two different layers, one with blur, one without, and a mask to decide where you can see bottom layer thru mask. In Shake, all you need is blur filter being applied to a single source, and being simply restricted by mask to part of your image. No need to get double layer...really simpler.
About using effects like time echo, you have a wonderful frame blend module, in each FileIn node (node you use to bring footage in Shake), where you can set frame blending by specifying frame range, and curve (ponderation) of the mix. So, what in AE can't be done with frame blending, because there is no way to access to settings, Shake does it this simple. A great tool when denoising needs to be done...

So, except missing raw support, all of your tasks are easily handled by Shake...


Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:54 am
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 85
Post Re: Apple Shake
Quote:
That would be cool it would be nice to also have a photoshop scale downed version - I've tried the photoshop vs AE and while I could see a difference if I looked at with the difference transfer mode - it wasn't enough of a difference to say that AE was terrible (I know you didn't say that).


Maybe next week I'll find some time to make test charts on AE, PS and Shake many different filters...

Quote:
Glad Shake is working for you - I have always thought node based systems were better for effects etc.., and as far as color correcting goes have you used apple's "color"? - or is the shake CC tools more robust than "Color" already?


Problem is I was already quite accustomed to Shake color correct tools when Color went out. But I gave a try, and was roughly disappointed. So yes, I prefer Shake tools. That said, Shake is not by default made as a color correct software, so Color specific workflow tools are of course better, because it was designed this way, but except this minor point, Shake tools are priceless compared to anything else...
If you're working with FCP, you have a feature to export your FCP sequence to Shake project. Works quite well, as long as your sequence stays quite simple, and doesn't contain any non ASCII characters in the clip name or path (because Shake is a Unix-born software, and can be quite annoying from that point of view)

Quote:
As far as deflickering goes have you looked at genarts' sapphire plug-ins the have one of the best plug-ins for deflicker removal and it now works with shake - you can download a demo to give it a try.


I don't own a copy of Sapphire plugs for Shake, and this has to be fixed. I have Furnace bundle which is totally insane. Kronos for advanced slomo/himo is unbelievable. Motion blur is also quite amazing (basically, analysis motion in your frame, find directions & lenght of mvts, and apply a blur according to motion found vectors) and allows to add some motion blur where you should have some, but don't because you're timelapsing ;)

A great feature that has not yet been discussed in the ability to build a tree, and turn it into a macro function. This way, repetitive tasks can easily be merge into a macro fct, you simply recall then, like any other node...Doesn't look like a crazy feature, but it is really enormous...


Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:29 am
Profile

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:40 pm
Posts: 251
Post Re: Apple Shake
ridindave wrote:
I didn't get the layer masks idea. What are you doing with layer masks ?


What I do to adjust specific areas is copy a layer and mask the object (sky, landscape, buildings) and adjust exposure and color.
This helps when the sky is too bright or needs chroma lift, or the landscape needs a little more brightness level...etc.
But you make a good point about Shake not needing to do so much to get there. Even Assimilate's scratch allows for multiple "scaffold" to change levels or color of specific areas. http://tutorials.assimilated.us/06-SCRA ... ffolds.mov

Wow, Dave...except for the lack of raw support I think Shake is the right tool to use to make my timelapse clips look amazing.
...and compared to 7k US (aprox) Nuke, the $499 Cdn price seems right.

Cheers,
cd


Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:06 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:10 pm
Posts: 85
Post Re: Apple Shake
Maybe you could give Shake a try before buying it. I know there are some "educational purpose" versions flying around...
I've bought 2 licences, but still I can help you if you have hard time to find such edu version...

A last thing, that is great about Shake : projects files are pure txt only files. You can open them in any text editor, have some copy/paste in them, or use the replace feature, for resetting paths to moved source files for ex...

Remember : take it slow & easy, read the f**ing manual, and ring my bell when you need to...

D.


Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:17 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forums/DivisionCore. pozycjonowanie